2013-01-10 22:17, IP: 74.105.107.183, from United States

11 positive reactions         27 negative

Dobermans with floppy ears look dopey.
Dobermans with with long tails are an abomination.
If your country does not permit cropping and docking, please stop breedings these ridiculous looking animals. Or you can breed black and tan coonhounds. Or you can move to USA.

2013-01-09 21:49, IP: 108.219.141.173, from United States

10 positive reactions         2 negative

Yes there is responsibilty of the dogs owner, but we all need
to let them grieve to some of us, it like the loss of a family member, only someone who is cold and just into it for the money, would badger someone at the time of their loss, give them time and they will respond.

Belgium is correct, they do also die from Cancer, Liver failure, and whatever else, and nobody gets on that.

I for one am sorry that they lost Fan-Fan, please let them alone until they are ready to tell the world.

Just to let you know I do not have nor do I this breeder, but right is right and wrong is wrong, to question them at this time, if you have a dog from their kennel or any kennel you should be doing health testing!!!!

2013-01-09 18:46, IP: 188.6.40.20, from Belgium

17 positive reactions         9 negative

I agree with US


Why in heck does everyone when a dog dies start rumors or ask if it was cardio? Can you all give the owners time to grieve before they share any info! As you all know that there can be something else a dog can die from other than cardio.

After my knowledge more dogs die of cancer ,but nobody talk about that.

It would be nice if someone could say something positive about the dogs and not only negative. Or to say they are sorry that Fan Fan died to their owners .

2013-01-09 18:10, IP: 67.159.5.242, from United States

19 positive reactions         3 negative

If you have a dog used in breeding it has some responsibility!

Like Fedor why did he died was it accident or illness. His mother died of dcm like many from this kennel have done.

2013-01-09 16:24, IP: 108.219.141.173, from United States

16 positive reactions         6 negative

Why in heck does everyone when a dog dies start rumors or ask if it was cardio? Can you all give the owners time to grieve before they share any info! As you all know that there can be something else a dog can die from other than cardio. PLEASE WAIT TILL YOU HEAR THE INFO FROM THE OWNER BEFORE YOU START ASKING QUESTIONS and rumors start!

2013-01-08 13:15, IP: 88.193.179.134, from Finland

8 positive reactions         4 negative

http://grandevinko.com/index.php?id=3&dog=50&no_cache=1

what is the reason of Fan-Fan de Grande Vinko's death only 8 years old? Was it dcm as the rumers say?

2013-01-06 22:05, IP: 78.0.18.95, from Croatia

8 positive reactions         1 negative

For German & Austrian owners: search for specialist which is member of "Collegium Cardiologicum", the most prestigios assotiation. They have the highest level of knowledge. Those doctors will not put their licence on risk by issuing falsificate! Data on their certificate (each with serial number) are all checked (microchip and Pedigree).
It takes years for achieving title od "cardiologist" ant it requires constant education. Those people are truly reliable.

2013-01-05 23:44, IP: 193.200.150.82, from Germany

12 positive reactions         0 negative

I have a question regarding the US,Holter EKG tests for the dogs that could be elected Siegers , does anyone know the answer : at which vets can be done to be recognized by IDC, what will assure that these tests are real or fake ? How many hospitals have US EKG (colour dopler) Holter in a country in the same place ?
Do not see in my question that I could be against testing, but are these tests so easy to be done at this hour ?

2012-12-31 14:09, IP: 79.205.206.79, from Germany

24 positive reactions         1 negative

yes. and may the distruction of the breed finally stop !

2012-12-30 13:59, IP: 77.4.162.142, from Germany

40 positive reactions         1 negative

after all that pro and contra on this chatboard let me say some very simple words to you:

a happy and peaceful new year 2013 to all dobermannfriends...and love your dobes

2012-12-21 17:30, IP: 199.48.147.40, from United States

38 positive reactions         7 negative

In my opinion filtering out ANY dog who is sick at the moment is better than nothing!! Also detecting those ventricular premature beats is possible with holter. You just might not catch them in 10 minute doppler. So holtering is by far better!

I also do not think that a good male has produced at the age of 4-5 years hundreds of puppies. I think that is irresponsible male ownership! Letting your male to breed with every single rack that comes to him is just not the way to go! That is just plain greed! Why do owners of good males do that? This thing called "matador male breeding" is a sick and twisted system and should be stopped. How does that increase diversity? You breeders are killing the breed slowly by inbreeding more and more and using the same males over and over again!

I am NOT going to wipe my butt with this and I am not going to shut up. There are lots of cases when holter has not been clear but the short ECG has been normal. Just do your homework and you will see!

On one thing I agree... There might not be any other way to hope for a good dobermann but pray for one! I think that is sad!

2012-12-21 12:47, IP: 79.205.205.211, from Germany

14 positive reactions         24 negative

to US : actually you can holter as much as you want and still it is no guarantee if your dog will not die of cardio one day. you can only filter out the young dogs which are ill at that particular moment. a good male has produced at the age of 4-5 years hundreds of puppies. what happens with his progeny if this particular male dies at the age of 7 of cardio ? NOTHING HAPPENS ! still his progeny will be used in breeding. the same with a female which is used for breeding. actually with 7-8 years most females are already OUT of breeding and they had surely 3-4 litters. what happens with her progeny if she dies of cardio at 7 years ? NOTHING HAPPENS ! still her progeny will be used or is already used in breeding. Dear USA, you can wipe your BUTT with those kind of tests and papers ! noone is safe of cardio, cardio is in every line. the holtering is a Test with NO CONSEQUENCE ! the young ill dogs which you can detect with the holter, you can also detect with a normal ecg and ultrasound. maybe it makes people sleep better at night. i guess thats the point.
i have a better proposion: go to church and pray before you buy your next dog. this might help more than holtering.

2012-12-20 13:30, IP: 199.48.147.35, from United States

39 positive reactions         6 negative

To: IP: 90.199.239.175, from United Kingdom

I agree. If breeders think that holtering is not necessary and if they breed only chest depth and tailsets then this breed is doomed! It seems to me that everyone wants to breed a great show champion but noone (or very few) wants to do anything to the health and character! This great breed that once was truly a good dog is now just a show poodle. A laughing stock for others! And what do breeders do? They cry about one holter test that is needed to get some title from some show!! In my opinion that is idiocracy!

This situation is so weird that I really truly do not understand it! People want to breed, breed and breed some more but when it comes to responsibility they dont want to do anything! It is nice to pick up the fruits some other breeders have done during the decades but when it comes to working hard in order for us to have dobermanns in the future noone seems to care. They cry that it is too expensive and too time consuming and too whatever. They just want to breed and take all the glory without any hard work that it requires.

So I hereby challenge ALL the puppy buyers NOT to buy a puppy from a combination who is NOT holtered and who has NO health examinations at all. Also ZTP should be required from both parents. We all know that ZTP is fairly easy to pass but then again so is IPO1 if you bribe the judge and buy the result. ZTP cannot be bought so at least in some countries it is more reliable than any other result.

I know that this text makes some people really mad but that is good. At least it makes them think! I speak out the truth and since I am not a breeder but a consumer I think I have the right to speak my mind. I do not want to change the breed but if dobermann breeders continue their "deep chest breeding" I might be forced to do that. My heart aches but that is the truth!

2012-12-20 10:55, IP: 90.199.239.175, from United Kingdom

37 positive reactions         2 negative

Having just lost my 9 month old female Dobe through heart disease, let me remind everyone of the very real heartache and distress this disease leaves in its wake! A beautiful, loving animal taken way too early and a family devastated through grief. This is the reality. So please let's drop the infighting and point scoring and let's face the very real problems in this breed. Our dogs deserve it!

2012-12-20 10:30, IP: 95.130.11.183, from France

5 positive reactions         21 negative

Dude, you need professional help.

2012-12-17 15:12, IP: 171.25.193.21, from Sweden

41 positive reactions         6 negative

****France, Sweden, Luxembourg...MAN, you are moving fast! Beam me up, Scotty.

So what if I use proxies? As if writing shitty blogs with your own name is somehow common these days...

**** It is ok to protect your privacy, but on the other hand it is HIGHLY DISHONEST to add pluses to your own comments. Think about that, you cheater.

Then stop doing it yourself! haha!

****But please I can not spot any of breeder, and I am sure others can not too, so please would you enlighten us? Thank you.

First please show me a puppy buyer who really does NOT want the parents of his puppy to be holtered. Pretty please!

****Could you please define sporting dog? Unless you're not participating IDC WM or any other trial you are just bullshiting.

A dog that can easily pass IPO3 at a national level. A dog who has solid nerves, good instincts and high self confidence. A dog who enjoys doing everything with its owner and a dog who does not get up and die at the age of 6... I really do not care about the tailset when I am on the training field with my dog. Also yellow eyes or smoky chest markings really do not make the obedience any better!

****I care about anatomy. But what would you know, all you care about is DCM. Now, let me just ask one question, between excellent dog without holter and an average dog with holter, which one would you name THE SHOW SIEGER.

First of all... Why on earth the excellent dog cannot get a holter result? Is there a law that only dogs with average appearance can be holtered? Second I also do care about the anatomy. As long as it is suitable for sports it is ok. Too heavy dogs wont do.

****I repeat - THE SHOW SIEGER. SHOW has NOTHING to do with HEALTH check ups.

I agree but still for some reason those siegers are used for breeding quite a lot so does it really hurt if they have been healthy at least at one point at their lives?

****Which breeders exactly? Names please! Otherwise shudd up!

I do not name anyone here try to get that already. It is considered rude and I just dont do rude. Deal with it! And I also wont shut up. You might as well deal with that also! I have the same right to say my opinion than you do. If you think that holtering is too much for you then please for heavens (and for dobermanns) sake do not breed or even consider to start!!!

****That's called SARCASM. They say it's body's natural defense against idiots.

Then your body must be really sick if it defends against superior beings instead of idiots!

2012-12-17 14:47, IP: 78.108.63.46, from Sweden

7 positive reactions         36 negative

****France, Sweden, Luxembourg...MAN, you are moving fast! Beam me up, Scotty.

"I do not do that. That would take like ages to do and I actually have something more important to do here than wait this page to download through a proxy. What I actually did was that I posted this page in my facebook so all people with brains could see what was happening here and they probably came and gave their opinion. I really cannot help it!"

****Yeah, right! So people at Facebook has not better things to do but to click on your posts, and then come here, read all the nonsense you have written and only after that to click plus just because they like your wisdom!?And all that in a matter of minutes. Who are you? Vin Diesel? C'mon!
Regarding your important deeds, I see you have plenty of time to discuss on this chatboard, so why would switching proxy make any difference? Huh?
It is ok to protect your privacy, but on the other hand it is HIGHLY DISHONEST to add pluses to your own comments. Think about that, you cheater.

"No naming here. It is easy to spot those breeders who do not care about health testing without me naming them right here."

****But please I can not spot any of breeder, and I am sure others can not too, so please would you enlighten us? Thank you.

"My god! I would happily take a dobermann with all those faults if it would live 10 years and be a good sporting dog!"

****Could you please define sporting dog? Unless you're not participating IDC WM or any other trial you are just bullshiting.

"They all should of course be holtered but again holterinf siegers is a good start. At least some people are trying to do something. You seem to be worried only about the looks! Poor you..."

****I care about anatomy. But what would you know, all you care about is DCM. Now, let me just ask one question, between excellent dog without holter and an average dog with holter, which one would you name THE SHOW SIEGER. I repeat - THE SHOW SIEGER. SHOW has NOTHING to do with HEALTH check ups. By encouraging that travesty you are actively participating something that should and will create even bigger disbalance toour breed. Use your own head for God's sake!!!

"Well still some breeders seem to manage to do that and their puppies do not cost much more that 1000-1200€. Wonder how they do that?"

****Which breeders exactly? Names please! Otherwise shudd up!

"Yes! The best solution would be for a dog to wear Holter every day all day or perhaps to have cardiogram attached to your laptop so you can check the status online.

Now you are just being ridiculous!"

****That's called SARCASM. They say it's body's natural defense against idiots.

2012-12-17 13:16, IP: 85.93.218.204, from Luxembourg

37 positive reactions         5 negative

****You clearly implied on SIEGERS.

Yes because that will be the new rule. Holtering siegers. I personally think that all dobermanns used for breeding should be holtered but holtering siegers is a good start!


**** Yes! The best solution would be for a dog to wear Holter every day all day or perhaps to have cardiogram attached to your laptop so you can check the status online.

Now you are just being ridiculous!

****And what would be the price for the puppy of "clinically proven parents"??? 3000eur? Do you have any idea how much all the tests and trial cost? Don't you think it would further lead to the total atrocity of the breed, due to greatly decreased breeding, killed by simple laws of economy.

Well still some breeders seem to manage to do that and their puppies do not cost much more that 1000-1200€. Wonder how they do that?

****Perhaps you are still fresh in this, but let me remind you that there were some dogs that were actually clinically tested and clear, just to die in a short notice. I will not name the dogs, but I am sure most of the people remember certain IDC CLASS WINNER who died virtually a day after his clear tests were publicly announced!!!

yes some dogs indeed. But still holtering would clear out most of the clinically ill dogs so who loses here?

****And who ever mentioned a female or two?!
"one male usually has the power to affect the breed more than one female".
This is hilarious!!! Darling, it is a bad mating that affects the breed, and later on, bad judging in the ring (that produces political Sieger, the one that mates tenths or even hundreds of females).

They all should of course be holtered but again holterinf siegers is a good start. At least some people are trying to do something. You seem to be worried only about the looks! Poor you...

****So, anatomy is less important? I guess that is why we now have certain peculiarities in the breed such as:
- terrible fronts
- incorrect tailsets (terrier-like)
- rottweiler roundish heads with atypical expressions
- bright eyes
- little or no chest markings
- fat pigs with no tucked waist at all
- females of 70 cm and more
- gigantic useless males
- disastrous hips
- wavy long coats

My god! I would happily take a dobermann with all those faults if it would live 10 years and be a good sporting dog!

****"Mental" you say? Most of the so called show dogs are nothing but timid horses, because it is so much more convenient. All they have to do is to stand and "behave".

That is why no show mule will ever enter my house!


****And who is going to make that noble change? You? And which wreck-breeders are you talking about? Name them!!!

No naming here. It is easy to spot those breeders who do not care about health testing without me naming them right here.

****
BTW
Forced pluses on your posts seems like complete lunacy. Don't do it. You are artificially shaping public opinion by using proxies by yourself. It is pathetic!

I do not do that. That would take like ages to do and I actually have something more important to do here than wait this page to download through a proxy. What I actually did was that I posted this page in my facebook so all people with brains could see what was happening here and they probably came and gave their opinion. I really cannot help it!

2012-12-17 12:53, IP: 5.9.191.52, from Europe

8 positive reactions         36 negative

"So, according to you only Siegers are relevant for the well being of the breed. Others should not apply because of course, only Siegers should mate. Right?"

Where did you get that? Maybe you should learn to understand what you read. Noone said that only siegers should breed. But since they breed a lot, it is important that they are healthy! Simple as that!

****You clearly implied on SIEGERS.

"Why stop there, let's do DCM and Holter on ALL dogs with pedigrees! But not, I'm afraid that there won't be any genes left in that pool. Agree?"

Not a bad idea! I am with you on this one and all for holtering every single dobermann every year! If there are no healthy genes in the pool left then this is the absolute last time to react! NOW! Not just close your eyes and do nothing.

**** Yes! The best solution would be for a dog to wear Holter every day all day or perhaps to have cardiogram attached to your laptop so you can check the status online.

We should use only clinically healthy dogs for breeding. That comes without saying. There is no need to even discuss this or the problem is not the breed but the breeders!

****And what would be the price for the puppy of "clinically proven parents"??? 3000eur? Do you have any idea how much all the tests and trial cost? Don't you think it would further lead to the total atrocity of the breed, due to greatly decreased breeding, killed by simple laws of economy.

This has no news value for me. Still clinically healthy dog is clinically healthy. No matter what age. If the dog is sick at 2,5 years then it should be a good thing that the truth comes out.

****Perhaps you are still fresh in this, but let me remind you that there were some dogs that were actually clinically tested and clear, just to die in a short notice. I will not name the dogs, but I am sure most of the people remember certain IDC CLASS WINNER who died virtually a day after his clear tests were publicly announced!!!

No one has mentioned only males. Of course it affects also females and also females should be holtered! People tend to speak only about males because one male usually has the power to affect the breed more than one female. Simple rules of breeding!

****And who ever mentioned a female or two?!
"one male usually has the power to affect the breed more than one female".
This is hilarious!!! Darling, it is a bad mating that affects the breed, and later on, bad judging in the ring (that produces political Sieger, the one that mates tenths or even hundreds of females).

Simple answer: HEALTH! Both physical and mental. Only after those comes the looks!

****So, anatomy is less important? I guess that is why we now have certain peculiarities in the breed such as:
- terrible fronts
- incorrect tailsets (terrier-like)
- rottweiler roundish heads with atypical expressions
- bright eyes
- little or no chest markings
- fat pigs with no tucked waist at all
- females of 70 cm and more
- gigantic useless males
- disastrous hips
- wavy long coats
"Mental" you say? Most of the so called show dogs are nothing but timid horses, because it is so much more convenient. All they have to do is to stand and "behave".

Well then it is about time to change that! Breeding sick dogs only for their looks is so pathetic that I do not even have words for that. Those breeders wreck this breed and they should rot in hell!

****And who is going to make that noble change? You? And which wreck-breeders are you talking about? Name them!!!

****
BTW
Forced pluses on your posts seems like complete lunacy. Don't do it. You are artificially shaping public opinion by using proxies by yourself. It is pathetic!

2012-12-17 11:38, IP: 212.63.218.1, from Sweden

38 positive reactions         5 negative

"So, according to you only Siegers are relevant for the well being of the breed. Others should not apply because of course, only Siegers should mate. Right?"

Where did you get that? Maybe you should learn to understand what you read. Noone said that only siegers should breed. But since they breed a lot, it is important that they are healthy! Simple as that!

"Why stop there, let's do DCM and Holter on ALL dogs with pedigrees! But not, I'm afraid that there won't be any genes left in that pool. Agree?"

Not a bad idea! I am with you on this one and all for holtering every single dobermann every year! If there are no healthy genes in the pool left then this is the absolute last time to react! NOW! Not just close your eyes and do nothing.

"Or take a look at this scenario: as we all presume by now - only few would pass Holter and DCM so we all use ONLY Siegers with Holters just for that genetical uniformity. How convenient, huh? What would be left to mate with then?!"

We should use only clinically healthy dogs for breeding. That comes without saying. There is no need to even discuss this or the problem is not the breed but the breeders!

"by the way, Holter has no relevance before certain age and as you can see a dog can be Sieger at the age of 2.5 years (or even less!) with no problem whatsoever, an age which can not show irregularities at heart with Holter testing, for your information"

This has no news value for me. Still clinically healthy dog is clinically healthy. No matter what age. If the dog is sick at 2,5 years then it should be a good thing that the truth comes out.

"How come NO ONE is mentioning females, but EVERYONE is just talking about potentially "interesting" males? Does DCM affects males only? Are you that narrow minded or blind?"

No one has mentioned only males. Of course it affects also females and also females should be holtered! People tend to speak only about males because one male usually has the power to affect the breed more than one female. Simple rules of breeding!

"@all: a survey question: between the looks and health which one would you pick?
Stupid answers like "both" are not acceptable, because this debate is all about looks vs health and nothing more and most of fans know shit about either of two!"

Simple answer: HEALTH! Both physical and mental. Only after those comes the looks!

"Come on! Let's be honest, we all know that majority people are buying (or selling) this breed for looks at the first place and everything else under b)"

Well then it is about time to change that! Breeding sick dogs only for their looks is so pathetic that I do not even have words for that. Those breeders wreck this breed and they should rot in hell!

2012-12-17 10:22, IP: 93.182.129.84, from Sweden

14 positive reactions         43 negative

@91.121.198.83, from France

So, according to you (and the leadership) only Siegers are relevant for the well being of the breed. Others should not apply because of course, only Siegers should mate. Right?

Why stop there, let's do DCM and Holter on ALL dogs with pedigrees! But not, I'm afraid that there won't be any genes left in that pool. Agree?

Or take a look at this scenario: as we all presume by now - only few would pass Holter and DCM (by the way, Holter has no relevance before certain age and as you can see a dog can be Sieger at the age of 2.5 years (or even less!) with no problem whatsoever, an age which can not show irregularities at heart with Holter testing, for your information) so we all use ONLY Siegers with Holters just for that genetical uniformity. How convenient, huh? What would be left to mate with then?!

Oh, and one more thing for those of you that are so diligently fighting windmills and this is most interesting for me: How come NO ONE is mentioning females, but EVERYONE is just talking about potentially "interesting" males? Does DCM affects males only? Are you that narrow minded or blind?

@all: a survey question: between the looks and health which one would you pick?
Stupid answers like "both" are not acceptable, because this debate is all about looks vs health and nothing more and most of fans know shit about either of two!

Come on! Let's be honest, we all know that majority people are buying (or selling) this breed for looks at the first place and everything else under b).

2012-12-16 23:49, IP: 91.121.198.83, from France

61 positive reactions         11 negative

It is really sad to notice that insider guy thinks that DNA tests and holtering the future IDC siegers is a bad thing? This almost makes me believe that he has something to hide there... Any normal person with a normal brains understands that DCM is a major problem for this breed and holtering siegers only makes sure that they are healthy at the moment!
Also any normal person understands that DNA tests are for making sure that the dog is what it is said to be. There are a LOT of dobermanns out there with fake papers, fake parents and fake everything. This has got to stop and making people to DNA test teir siegers (who usually are widely used for breeding) is just making sure that those dogs are what they should be! It is very good that they collect the DNA in every ZTP also. You liars and cheaters wont be able to keep up your bad work anymore!

2012-12-15 14:55, IP: 87.55.109.104, from Denmark

15 positive reactions         28 negative

News on Insider

http://inside-dobermann.blogspot.dk/2012/12/still-around-still-watching.html

2012-12-14 01:06, IP: 78.108.63.46, from Sweden

7 positive reactions         21 negative

Btw, I guess spam is where those significant short notice pluses on dead and crap remarks are coming from as well.

2012-12-14 01:04, IP: 95.211.211.92, from Netherlands

9 positive reactions         8 negative

This is weird:
IP: 74.120.15.150

IP look up says it is from Dresden/Germany and still, it is signed in as an USA domain. Any reasonable explanation for that?

Here is the info

IP: 74.120.15.150
Decimal: 1249382294
Hostname: raskin.torservers.net
ISP: Default Route
Organization: torservers.net
Services: Confirmed proxy server
Recently reported forum spam source. (56)
Type: Corporate
Assignment: Static IP

Geolocation Information

Country: Germany
State/Region: Sachsen
City: Dresden
Latitude: 51.05
Longitude: 13.75

2012-12-13 21:31, IP: 74.120.15.150, from United States

56 positive reactions         21 negative

Insider is full of crap!

2012-12-13 17:18, IP: 79.205.193.78, from Germany

21 positive reactions         2 negative

insider is for sure not dead - maybe the protagonists "behave" at the moment ;) - or maybe because it is soon christmas the insider doesnt want to hurt their feelings ;) ;) ;)

2012-12-13 16:20, IP: 93.134.31.167, from Germany

58 positive reactions         17 negative

insider is dead!

2012-12-13 04:25, IP: 98.183.198.240, from United States

16 positive reactions         4 negative

Why there is not new post on Insider since Sept?

2012-12-12 19:13, IP: 154.32.92.202, from Europe

5 positive reactions         5 negative

Ireland I have to agree with you I would not put this dog in the top 10 let alone number one.

T.H.C.