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The health problems and genetical bootle neck , incests and diversity destruction is contrar FCI proclamed rules ! The incest happened using dogs with grave problems.
But now, back than 5-6 generations , you can find only same ancestors . The actual IDC sieger in 14 generations , from 32764 ancestors only 1115 diferent names !
That in time when entire different dobermanns populations was TOTAL erased from Terra surface till NOTHING remained !
Unfortunately FCI nothing did till now because 1. they care but don't know or 2.they know but don't care .
Regarding ZTP it is not mandatory for FCI breeding . Is only a DV invention applied wrong , with trainer and in dominance by only few judges , how long only DV and only DV president which is IDC president and Judges president can decide the judges .
Now in IDC they decided to future stop the ZTP starter :dogs from parents without HD/ZTP will be eliminated . That mean 70-80 % from dobermann population .
Just a question...
If you read the FCI INTERNATIONAL BREEDING STRATEGIES - (http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/29-2010-annex-en.pdf) They state:
3. To preserve, or preferably extend, the genetic diversity of the breed, matador breeding and heavy inbreeding should be avoided. Mating between siblings, mother to son or father to daughter should never be performed. As a general recommendation no dog should have more offspring than equivalent to 5% of the number of puppies registered in the breed population during a five-year period. The size of the breed population should be looked upon not only on national but also on international level, especially in breeds with few individuals.
There is WAY too much of all the things in this regulation happening in our breed, why is it being allowed when it is clearly against FCI regulations, why are certain dogs even given a FCI pedigree?
I have nothing personally against Thor or his owner or breeder but, why has this mating been allowed in Germany? http://dobermann.com/welpen/sachsen_anhalt/welpen.htm.
Teraline Thor has been used in Germany before, he even has a ZTP! Surely as a direct contravention of the FCI breeding rules this dog should never have a ZTP, he should not be allowed to be used for breeding.
In this day and age when there are so many genetic problems and so many other dogs available, why do you need to do incest mating anyway?
This is the beautiful dobermann world !?
War and war everywhere !
Why that ? Because some peoples use their power to walk with their big shoes in another people gardens ? I think will be no peace how long happen that.
This is a very interesting article about breed type. http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/92579.
Although it is not specifically about Dobermanns it certainly applies to our breed.
Sure that the genepool is small. Very Small . For example, Germa show dog Orson V Nemesis, from 32764 possible ancestors in 14 generations , only 1115 are different . The same on entire race . The coeffciient of inbreeding is HUGE .
Some old breeders as Arany Sarkany , presented public some writed by hands pedigrees with dogs from Eastern space from 1910 years .
This is a new confirmation about originality of past Eastern dogs from Poland, Czech, RUssia , Hungary, Romania .That dogs was different phisically , mental and very longevive in general.
After their TOTAL elimination from breeding stoc in favor of 75 cm Great Danes NON ORIGINAL dobermanns , because GENIALS are GENIALS and nothing more, they destroyed not only a original huge dobermann genepool but destroyed any actual refresh for dobermann breed
Now we talk and talk, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid again and again same bloodlineswhich have again and again same genetical background based hundredths of times in dogs of ex DV president : Bryan V Forell, Chicko V Forell, Odin V Forell or Frankenhorst : Hertog Alpha V Le Dobry , Ebo V Groote Mat , Hundredths of years Olive Bamby Pride , Don Dayan Alva , Vitesse, Ero and other Frankenhorsts ,
That are the reasons and FACTS wroted in pedigrees , from which we arrived in this point of genetical bottleneck and general ill problems ..
You must to understood one thing . This show system is WRONG . Very Wrong ! If this system destroyed dobermann breed genepool one time and eliminated TOTAL entire dobermanns populations from variouse countries, this system is sick and dangerouse and we must to castrate and cut his testicles , from ROOTS . Otherwhise the story can repeat , more grave than precedent . . What happened in variuse parts of countries , is happened on silance in your own dobermanns which endure the genetical limitation and died youngs ! I talk about YOU , about any of us !
We need a new breeding way , we need to promote new breeding rules :
The 7-th principles of the UNIQUE BULETIN of new breeding way are :
1. FREEDOM and RESPECT form every country and EVERY breeder and EVERY dobermann !
2. A FREE and New NATIVE ZTP :The ZTP is free for all dobermanns with pedigree . The judgement must be based in POINTS SCORE . The grave standard problems will stop the reproduction right . For all the rest , the score can be from 1 to 10 points .For reproduction , both parents must to have together 10 points .
In this mode the performance is encouraged , will happen a real selection and real improvement of every litter , the entire genepool is protected because nobody is eliminated !
3. SIMPLE structures, simple rules , noting mandatory because WE ARE NOT SLAVES and WE ARE NOT ENGAGED IN HITLERIST ARMY .
4. Doberman SHOWS will be only places where breeders meet one with others . The SHOW titles must to lost their VANITOUSE importance because VANITY almost destroyed our breed !
5. Every country FREEDOM in breeding is recognised by new international structure how long the national clubs RESPECT that PRINCIPLES OF FREEDOM !
6. All dobermanns, ugly or beautiful, working or showlines , croped or natural, doked or undoked are EGUAL and can be reproducted FREE how long they are correct and in standard (mental and phisical) !
7. We can be MEMBERS AND PARTNERS with FCI and ANY other organisation how long they respect our race , this race breeding freedom , conform our necesities and how long their rules are conform with our FREEDOM PRINCIPLES !
Only in this mode this race will be free !
I losted my patience to write in this non native language !
I hope that till the end of my life to come the day to talk in peace in my language with Romanian breeders , WITHOUT FOREIGN POLITICIANISTS to make for us IDIOT RULES and to destroy our breeding AGAIN , as happened !
Keep in mind that !
Good post IP 246 German friend !
I already start to be a old man and and nothing good I saw in this race . I am sik to wait to these peoples to do something good and inteligent for this race !
Every new rule/interdiction mean a new blow for this race ! How long to wait ?
I losted my patience !
Is time to change and all persons which old mentalities to STAY HOME !
Hei Genials !
can you imaginate what happen if the German rules and German trained ZTP ( much $$$$$$$$ are needed ) would be mandatory for all countries and for entire breed ?? can you imaginate that ?
Can you imaginate what happend now, if the ZTP starter is or will be prohibited IF ZTP would be mandatory to obtain pedigrees ?
I will resume for you : The DOMNINATION is ilnesses would be complete ! Only 20-30% from genepol can survive = the Dominant ill bloodlines= trend = Nothing else
Hai capito Genials ?
What you did in IDC congress ?
Do you slip all together ?
Italy, You are right, these are the breeding rules that I found from the FCI: http://www.fci.be/circulaires/15-2013-annex-en.pdf.
They are very good general rules, but it is the more specific rules to prevent health problems that need to be made and enforced.
It is all very well to have breeding regulations, but if they are not enforced then what good are they?
I know for example that it is not allowed by FCI regulations to breed with a dog with cryptorchidism, monorchidism (only one testicle), but I also know that there was a breeder doing this. When the registering body was asked what can be done, they only said "how would we know?" There is so much apathy! In cat breeding, most registering bodies require a Veterinary Certificate of Entirety for a stud cat to be lodged with the Registrar before his first litter will be registered.
I know things can be faked, but this is where ethics and honesty come in again. Even things as basic as not granting registration to an incest bred litters is at least a start.
The only way breeding will improve is if breeders are ethical and honest, follow the rules and work together instead of against each other.
2014-02-17 08:49, IP: 22.214.171.124, from Italy
the FCI have made a really good breeding rules, no one use them!
the FCI have made a really good breeding rules, no one use them!
This really is a sad state of affairs. I do not know Jean Paul Godart, I do not know anything about him, nor do I know anything about the French Dobermann Cub.
I am writing this, not to comment on this election, but rather to comment on the ridiculous amount of politics that is destroying our beloved breed, faster than we realise.
I assume that those “in power” are far to arrogant to read this chatboard, but oh how I wish they would. They could still turn things around themselves and remain “in power”.
There is so much that can be done to start fixing health problems and genetic disease. I do not understand why people cannot get passed the politics; I don’t really understand the politics anyway, we’re talking about a dog here.
Political agendas alone have contributed so much to the downfall of the breed. There are a few failed attempts at creating an “official opposition”, but they have failed. Dobermann Insider is all very well and I applaud his efforts at exposing things. However, writing about something is not the same as doing something about it. Many people comment on the Insider blog, but nothing is being done. How can this changed? What can we do as “ordinary” breeders and owners to protect the breed? How can we go forward? How can we get a consensus across countries? There NEED to be strict breeding rules in place, there is no doubt about it, but if everyone feels “oppressed” by rules then we will get no where. Ethical breeding is needed, honesty and NO politics are the only way forward. How?
For Italy :
Godart is the only guy that you should not elect president !
For him, a single breeding " du reflet des songes ", HIS breeding, is good at France, the other breedings are for him some shit !
His only posted purpose, to destroy the breeding "Of Devil Inside"
Threats, intimidations, insults, do you think that it deserves a president of Club ?
Ex committee member of DCF
there is a huge numbers of links on the links page that doesn't exist anymore
please explain it!
Today is a very bad day for the Dobermann in France !
Jean Paul Godart elected as president of French Club, the worst things that he can arrive for the French Doberman !!!
French Club is dead !
Lively the mafia !
Guten Abend liebe Dobermannfreunde!!!
Darf in Slowenien noch kupiert werden?
gledam slike stenaca i ne mogu da verujem ......vecina odgajivaca i u Srbiji ali i inostranstvu ostavlja klempave i repate pse....sta reci nego poltroni i plasljive slihtare.....sramota ko drzi dobermane danas.....i treba rasa da nestane kad su takvi odgajivaci...nije ni cudo sto nemci sve izguraju sto zamisle kad su odgajivaci takvi kakvi su....sitne interesdzije i slihtare....
Or let the owner give you the date of the ZTP and where he did it. You can look here (only from 2010) - http://dobermann.de/index.php/ergebnisse,
click on Zuchttauglichkeitsprüfungen. There are all the results of ZTP's done all over the world, by date and place. When you click on the specific link it will show you all dogs entered and results. If he won't send you a copy of the result then I think you can assume that it is not real. There would be no reason for him not to send it if he says the dog has it.
let the owner send you a copy of the ztp result. it is just as easy as that. you can try to ask at the dv but i dont think that they have a data base. why i assume this is because whenever you take part at a ztp in germany with a foreign dog, they want copies of parents hd results and ztp. they dont seem to have a computer program where they save up the results and they can look it up.
how I can see if a dog have pased the ztp? his owner say yes, other people no. Can I ask it at the DV?
They have copies of it?
Serbian , will be a pleasure to know a Serbian with courage as in past when I was only a young boy , I knowed a Serbian from Timisoara named Matici Radivoi , which put his power near myself and we was invincible for years in face of ill cohortes !
Don't hesitate to contact me !
And NEVER this system which maybe will kill my few dogs , BUT never defended us and will do not defend us because I NEVER ACCEPTED AND NEVER I WILL ACCEPT HIM !
UK 126.96.36.199 you are a shit without courage hided by " Hide My Ass! Free proxy "
Simply search your IP with google to see this person lasity .
I am real , I am proud by my bloodline which was a great bloodline , and my dogs are real too.
prijatelju iz Rumunije....nisam odgajivac i sa odgajivacima u Srbiji nista ne moze da se uradi...vecina su plasljivi politicari i dupeuvlakaci...oni koji imaju muda da nesto urade su isuvise mali da bi bilo sta menjali,a svi koji su jaci odgajivaci gledaju samo svoj interes...kazem bitno im je da nameste izlozbu da bi na te namestene rezultate prodavali svoje lose pse i jos losije stence....i da se uvuku u dupe nemcima i pezanu da bi eventualno prosli na nekoj jacoj izlozbi(opet sa losim psima) i opet zbog nekog pehara da bi njihove fabrike dobermana zaradile sto vise.....moje misljenje je da takve ljude (kao sto su jaci odgajivaci u Srbiji a svi znamo koji su to) ne treba uvlaciti u novu pricu jer ce da upropaste sve...oni su podigli svoje fabrike pasa(to nisu odgajivacnice) na namestanjima i spletkama....truli su i pokvareni i sa takvim govnima ne treba saradjivati....jer ce i od novog kluba napraviti isto sto je i idc sada....treba ukljuciti prave ljubitelje rase a to su pravi odgajivaci i vlasnici...kojih ima mnogo i koji stvarno vole ovu rasu u izumiranju a upravo izumire zbog tih fabrika pasa,BEHTA,PEZANA,I OSTALIH POLITICARA I NAMESTACA IZLOZBI I UBICA RASE..... JA IMAM MUDA DA DIREKTNO NAPADNEM NEMCE I SVE TE FABRIKE DOBERMANA....JAVNO ALI IZGLEDA DA SAM USAMLJEN U TOME....MNOGO JE PICAKA U RASI....
valencia = weinberge avatar = mobil phone 188.8.131.52 = 184.108.40.206 = catastrofic breeder = internetic breeder
You have courage friend Serbian . Who are you because I do not know any Serbian capable to rise with true against the system ?
Yes , and we still can create a real Club , not a phantom leaded by fear . It is our constitutional right to associate free without fear and without the order words "we must to take care " which becomed the emblem of WDB !
We can promote FREEDOM in breeding , equality for dogs and breeders , respect for all world bloodlines , new ZTP rules , beautiful shows where all are winners not vanitouse rings of death .
Think to that !
a sto se tice promena u rasi....necete uraditi nista....zato sto ne mozete da uradite nista...odgajivaci su picke koje ne smeju da se suprotstave nemcima i to je to...standard se menja...rasa nestaje a vi i dalje serite po internetu umesto da pravite paralelan klub sa idc-om i da se forsiraju kupirani psi....za pet godina bi idc nestao sa svojim klempavim i repatim psima(to nisu dobermani)...PONAVLJAM-JEDINO RESENJE JE PARALELAN INTERNACIONALNI KLUB(NE INTERNET SRANJE TIPA WDB)...PRAVI KLUB I DA SE LOBIRAJU LJUDI DA DODJU U TAJ KLUB...PONAVLJAM SAMO TAKO NESTO MOZE DA SE URADI...DA SE UDJE U OTVORENI RAT SA NEMCIMA ZA RASU...TO STO JE RASA MATICNO NEMACKA...NISTA NE ZNACI...ONI SU RESILI DA JE UPROPASTE ZABRANOM KUPIRANJA I SVOJOM POLITIKOM I NAMESTANJIMA NA IDC-U ZA SVOJE I PEZANOVE PSE....PROBUDITE SE I PRAVITE KLUB I IGNORISITE IDC I NEMCE...TO JE JEDINI NACIN...UVEK CE BITI ZEMALJA KOJE CE DOZVOLJAVATI KUPIRANE PSE....A POSLE RADITE NA POBOLJSANJU SVEGA OSTALOG STO SU NOVOKOMPONOVANI ODGAJIVACI(FABRIKE PASA),MARKETING FIRME UPROPASTILE U RASI.....ZNA SE KOJE SU TO FIRME ...IMA IH DOSTA I U SRBIJI...ALI I U ITALIJI,RUSIJI,UKRAJNI,MADJARSKOJ...NJIH TAKODJE TREBA UGASITI I ZABRANITI VISE TREND NAMESTANJA IZLOZBI ZBOG REKLAME ZA PRODAJU PASA U TIM FABRIKAMA DOBERMANA...PREPOZNACE SE ONI SAMI KOJI SU.....
They make a change !
A GREAT DANE MONSTER FULLY BY SKIN AND ILNESSES , WITH BIG TAILLLLL AND BIGGG EARS AS AIRPLANES PROHIBITED TO PARTICIPATE TO TRAINED ZTP !
THIS IS THE CHANGE OF GENIALS !
I LOSTED MY PATIENCE WITH THEM ! DO YOU ?
2014-02-08 21:34, IP: 220.127.116.11, from Germany 0 positive reactions 0 negative
Congratulations bulgaria ! You are the first who understood the problem. We have zero genetical diversity. The genetic is f*** ed up. No use to cry about the past, no use to blame someone. We need to stop it NOW and make a change !
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