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Saturday, 18th April 2015. All times are CET (Central European Time)

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2014-11-12 22:20, IP: 84.2.14.2, from Hungary 2 positive reactions 1 negative
Finland you should be a bit careful about what you say about fakes. If you do a proper health test for Dobermann they will be sent mostly to Goettingen in Germany from countries like Serbia ,Hungary etc. All breeders I know send mostly to Germany also because of HD for ZTP. Some test for DNA will be sent to USA.
So please tell me how they can be fake.

2014-11-12 20:43, IP: 88.114.163.85, from Finland 1 positive reactions 1 negative
In some parts of europe healthy reports are fake so this is what also is KILLING dobermann! People think that they are buying healthy and clear dogs but the truth is very different! We try to fight against DCM but thanks to these idiots it will be here to stay!

2014-11-12 19:46, IP: 189.180.178.56, from Mexico 0 positive reactions 0 negative
Ok we are missing the point may be it was my fault because, as I said, vW was the only problem I found in those specific kennels so I focused on that and I'd like a dog with as less PROBABILITIES as POSSIBLE of any genetic disease and because a lot of kennels gives fake papers and one cannot be sure of what one person says about the other. I know that a lot of problems can affect a dog health, genetic or not.

The point was if you could gave me more info about the health of the lines I wrote based on your knowledge as breeders or experienced dobermann owners so I could complete the info I already have Thanks to the tools you gave me. As I said I am not a breeder nor I want to be, however I would like to know as much as possible about the breed I like and find the better dog for me and in some point to have the tools to give something back.

Oh and by little by little I meant in the case you have decided to preseve an excelent characteristic of a carrier.

2014-11-12 17:50, IP: 75.23.184.186, from United States 1 positive reactions 0 negative
Mexico:
At the end of the day it's all going to come down to finding an honest breeder that
you can trust. Just because you have the money to spend will not always mean you are going to
get a good dog. Most good breeders will not send a good dog to Mexico because they know that it
would be waisted. You can always visit breeders but the problem is you do not know what you are
looking at and can not judge poor quality. It all comes down to a breeders reputation. If you want a
pup now, then find a commercial breeder because they will have pups available year around. That is if you
don't mind buying a pup with a medical problem or problems. You have a long hard road ahead of you
and I wish you good luck.

2014-11-12 07:56, IP: 95.87.236.221, from Bulgaria 5 positive reactions 0 negative
Mexico - Let's just get one thing straight here with vWD... because I think this is clouding your judgement.

There is a definitive genetic test for vWD, and there are three possible statuses that a dog can have: clear, carrier, affected. Clear dogs do not carry the gene, carrier dogs carry ONE copy of the gene, affected dogs carry TWO copies of the affected gene (but generally are not clinically affected by the disease).

If you have a carrier dog and you breed it to a clear bitch, in a hypothetical litter of 8 you get 4 clears, 4 carriers. You can test the puppies for their status from about 1 week old with a cheek swab sample sent to a laboratory. If you choose to keep a clear puppy from that combination: voila, you have just eradicated the disease from your lines.

There is no "little by little" unless you are talking about removing the disease from the entire breed population worldwide. In terms of breeding programs, in one step, or at most two steps (e.g. affected x clear - carrier x clear - clear x clear), you can remove vWD from your lines.

Clear is clear, there is no middle ground, there is no future threat of affecteds popping up, because unlike DCM, vWD is concerned with ONE gene. It really is that simple.

So, instead of worrying about "carrier lines", check the status of the parents, and if you are that worried, test the status of the individual puppy before you buy.

And sorry to bust your bubble, but if there existed any lines in this breed with no other problems besides vWD, Dobermann health wouldn't be in such a bad situation as it is today.

--
Black Athirat

2014-11-12 05:17, IP: 189.249.56.54, from Mexico 1 positive reactions 1 negative
Jay I am not a breeder I am trying to apply what I know of diseases and genetics, that is why I ask. I know vW can be a problem depending on de degree of the disease and the number of carriers reduces generation by generation, and as you said a serious breeder can almost erradicate through selective breeding, but as I said how can someone know if a breeder is breeding correctly. Here the breeders in general have no good fame and generally are talking shit to each other and I know several people that has been fooled. So knowing this I wouldn't buy a dog which has any probability of having vW -not here anyway-. I know there are other diseases, and as far as I could find, vW was the only problem in kennels of my interest.
And yes México has a lot of junk from US and Southamerica. And a lot of people is buying only the name of a kennel or a dog just to make money saying that some champion is grandfather of a litter, not caring about anything but sell those puppies for good money. So the quality of dobermanns here is no good because a lot of breeders do not care, they want theironey. There are exceptions of course.
And thank you too Bulgaria

2014-11-11 20:54, IP: 75.23.184.186, from United States 4 positive reactions 0 negative
Jay
The Chap from Mexico is researching and it is obivious that his questions
are based on what he has read or talking to poor quality breeders.
He has no clue to what he is doing because of lack of reaearch material available.
I suggest that he goes to the Info-Library on this forum and start reading.
Mexico is not known for producing quality Dobermanns. Too much influence from
the junk produced in America from American blood lines.

2014-11-11 00:15, IP: 86.165.219.209, from United Kingdom 14 positive reactions 0 negative
What an ignorant and annoying statement: "if a breeder is producing vW carriers he is not taking care of his matings " and how very short sighted of you that you were put off a dog from good breeders because they were vWD Carriers.

There is nothing wrong in producing vWD Carriers if the dogs are excellent in other respects. Your statement shows you understand nothing about keeping a wide gene pool and eliminating something which is not a problem (unless Affected's are produced which potentially/not always can be a problem), than in avoiding Cardio, hips, bad character, missing teeth, PHPV etc.

If you were looking for a stud dog to make lots of money on, then maybe it would matter for the dog to be Clear, but if you are a serious Dobermann owner it is not your first thought.

Years ago when DNA testing first became available, we would have our puppies tested if we were producing Carriers and Clears, but we never let that affect our decision over which puppy to keep. If the best was a Carrier we kept it. We were more limited with options for later matings, but we always keep the best dog. We have slowly moved to producing only Clear dogs but that is by default not design and I would produce a litter of Carriers tomorrow if the dogs were the best combination. I would not breed from an Affected female as there is a risk of bleeding if she had to have a caesarean for example, but would use a vWD Affected male on a Clear female without hesitation if the dog was otherwise excellent.

It is excellent to do good research, but if you are going to be idealistic for the sake of it, as this is, you will need only a great deal of good luck.

Jay Horgan
Aritaur, UK

2014-11-10 22:04, IP: 75.23.184.186, from United States 2 positive reactions 1 negative
Mexico:
You are correct and this is why it is important to find an honest
breeder. There are many ways to fake health test results. Use the wrong breeder and it may be years before you discover a major health problem or problems. In some countries cheating is common.

2014-11-10 21:25, IP: 189.180.11.83, from Mexico 0 positive reactions 7 negative
Thank you united States I'll use the info you gave me. And yes a carrier does not express the disease and does not give puppies expressing the disease, however the vW carrier gene does pass to the next generation although de recurrence is less with every generation, but if a breeder is producing vW carriers he is not taking care of his matings and if other have two carrier studs something is no right JMHO.

2014-11-10 20:30, IP: 95.87.236.221, from Bulgaria 4 positive reactions 2 negative
Mexico - you have a lot of research to do if you think that a vWD carrier bred to a vWD clear can produce an affected: it absolutely cannot. Out of a carrier x clear mating 50 percent of the offspring will be carriers and 50 percent will be clear, this is basic Mendelian genetics. Once a line is bred clear, an affected cannot suddenly pop up out of nowhere in future - you would have to breed two carriers or a carrier to an affected or two affecteds to have the chance of getting an affected dog. But like America said, this is the least of your problems.

You cannot make the assumption that Dobes from one continent are healthier than another - it depends on the lines. When I was in in Mexico I met breeders who had dogs live to 12-14 with no problems, and likewise I know breeders here with long lived dogs. Dobes are dropping dead at young ages everywhere, sometimes it is reported, but mostly it is not... DCM, cancer, stomach torsion... those are the big killers and what you should really be worried about, and now Wobblers is being seen more frequently. If you have the chance to visit breeders there in person, ask to see their old dogs. If you find a mating from parents who are say 5-6 years old, and whose parents are alive at 10, and have grandparents that also lived to similar ages etc., that is as good as chance as any for a healthy combination, but of course not a guarantee.

Like I said before, research lines you are interested in the databases (working-dog.eu, dobermannpedigrees.nl etc.), paying close attention to the lifespans of the dogs. If you see an entire 3 generation pedigree with dogs dying at ages 4-7, that's a big red flag and what I would personally try to avoid. However, there is no foolproof way of getting a healthy Dobe these days with the declining gene pool and the state that the breed is in.

As for importing a dog, if you want to get the temperament you want, and you don't know the breeder well, you should pick the dog up in person (it's cheaper than paying for the pup to be shipped by cargo anyway). Temperament is not a given and what might be right for one person may not suit another.

2014-11-10 17:21, IP: 75.23.184.186, from United States 4 positive reactions 1 negative
Mexico:
We all want healthy Dobermanns. But with the wide spread health problems
the odds are not in your favor. Google Dobermann Health Problems.
Read about the problems that plague the race worldwide. Thia is why it is important to
find a breeder that produces one litter a year and why it is important to stay away from
the commercial Dobermann breeders. Quality not quanity. Less is best.

2014-11-10 16:03, IP: 189.249.56.54, from Mexico 0 positive reactions 2 negative
Maybe I'm overthinking if I want work or show, but actually I want a midle point, is dificult for an european dog to win BIS and IPO 3 dog needs very specific mental characteristics and I know is very dificult to find. I had two american line dobermanns, both amazing with the family, but the first was a scared dog and the second was really good and responded well to protection training but she died at two years old from osteosarcoma (i know ti may or may not have genetic components). So I want a dog as healthy as possible, I know a lot of things can happen but at least not genetic issues. I now heart diseases can kill in a minut, HD can diminsh life quality and may be is more frecuent. I am not an expert but I know what vW disease is and I understand genetics, vW can be "corrected" but one carrier breeded with one healthy diminish probabilities to 1 in 4, still high if you ask me, if those dogs are not bred carefully it can appear anytime.

Plus, here are only few european line breeders and as far as I can see they are talking bs to eachother, so I'd like objetive opinions about the lines they use so I can have a better idea of what to choose cause I have decided to buy here.

And I have seen a lot of pesimism about the ban on docking and cropping, but ears an tail do not define a breed IMHO. And people that don't want to show their dogs are going to do it any way. What I'd like to know is how that is going to affect the exchange of dogs from North america

2014-11-10 05:40, IP: 75.23.184.186, from United States 6 positive reactions 0 negative
Mexico:
In my opinion you are over thinking this. It is not difficult to find a good Dobermann.
First you have to find an honest breeder that is working/titling and health testing.
Someone that produces one litter a year. Stay away from the commercial breeders.
If you are not going to work the dog in IPO then don't bother to research these kennels.
If you are looking for a pet then find a pet quality breeder but don't expect the mentality to be good.
Don't expect all breeders to be honest with you. Your problem is you don't know enough about the race
to make a good choice. vWD is a problem in the race but there are far grater health problems to worrie about.
A vWD carrier is the least problem. It can be corrected in one generation with the right breeding choices.
A carrier is just a carrier, put to a clear dog you reduce the problem until it just goes away.

Portugal is spot on. FCI countries are in trouble on 1Jan15

2014-11-10 05:11, IP: 189.249.56.54, from Mexico 0 positive reactions 2 negative
I began searching kennels a few months ago, I am focusing right now in finding a dog with as least genetic diseases as possible, I know how I want it phisically, I want a dog that can work at a good level, not a super intense one because he's going to be with children in some point. I can see Doberman working proyect is about IPO dog breeders -it's all over de site- and I can see that only a few of the kennels listed are famous in conformation, wich was suprising because the usual thoughts are that european lines are not separated in working and comformation. I also found a couple more european line kennels here and I saw in te pedigries that some of them have a dog carrier of von Willebrand with vom Ferremberg and van Neerland stam blood and other vW carrier with Aurachgrund blood, which stops me from buy there. The other possibilities here are one kennel that uses del Nasi mainly and Elite House and de Grande Vinko (whose dogs I like very much), the last one has some dogs with von Bayern, Eschenbrug and Aurachgrund mainly. I understand that basicaly the first has dogs more suited for show and the second for work. These are my two options of kennels here in my country, I read in previous posts about von Bayern but can you give me your opinion or a little more info about the health of the lines they have?
Thank you very very much

P.D. Portugal I think you are overreacting

2014-11-09 23:28, IP: 188.80.189.189, from Portugal 8 positive reactions 2 negative
dobermann is over with ears and tail . R.I.P 2014

2014-11-09 18:58, IP: 75.23.184.186, from United States 4 positive reactions 0 negative
America:
I don't tell people what to do I can only tell you what I have done in the past for my dogs.
I found that they have a way of telling me when it is time to go to the vet.
In the past I used to find ways to prolong the problem. I would say just one more week then just one more day. In the end a week or a day did not matter. Do what is right for the dog.

2014-11-09 18:42, IP: 72.133.222.112, from United States 0 positive reactions 0 negative
We have an 11 year old doby who has really begun to show her age. She is having a hard time getting around, she collapses often. She has many fatty tumors. Any thoughts???

2014-11-08 01:14, IP: 95.87.236.221, from Bulgaria 2 positive reactions 1 negative
Mexico: the list on the Working Dobermann Breeders Project is incomplete. It was just launched this year by breeders based in the US. The working line Dobermann population and the community is fairly small, do your research first on the various lines and the health problems in the breed, look at the longevity in the lines you like - then find a breeder you're comfortable with.

2014-11-07 22:53, IP: 75.23.184.186, from United States 1 positive reactions 0 negative
Mexico:
Just remember that the breeders on the Working Dobermann Breeders Project
produce working Dobermanns from Weastern European blood lines. Most but not
everyone have competed at a local, national and some at an internastional level.
Most of these breeders want to sell to people that are interested in IPO.
If you are just looking for a family pet, these breeders will not be for you.

2014-11-07 21:41, IP: 189.180.4.115, from Mexico 2 positive reactions 0 negative
Bulgaria I didn't see te kennel you wrote in your post I focused on the pages you told me. I have seen the pages of those kennels you told me and a couple more of the working dog and working doberman project web sites (thank you united States) and found very interesting information about breeders here and in other countries.
I think I am in a similar situation with the other United States , my primary goal is to get a dog with as less genetic issues as possible, then a working dog that fits in the standard. I hope the community could help me with the doubts that come to me in the process of searching the best kennels for me. I had a couple dogs american line, but I really want an european line dobermann now.
Thanks for your help

2014-11-06 20:12, IP: 75.23.184.186, from United States 3 positive reactions 3 negative
The Working Dobermann Breeders Project
is the best place to start researching for a good breeder.
To most of these breeders IPO is still a sport and not a business.

2014-11-06 18:51, IP: 66.86.98.250, from United States 1 positive reactions 1 negative
Yes the health is most important to me. I have been trying to learn more about healthy breeding and pedigrees but the training itself is what I'm most interested in. I am looking for a good working dog for schutzhund training. I have a couple trainers lined up to help me but I still need to find a good dog. I have plenty of time on my hands for training right now but I have a lot to learn so I'm just gonna wait. Thanks for your response.

2014-11-06 14:57, IP: 195.178.37.106, from Serbia 5 positive reactions 0 negative
If you're still new and learning, i would advise you to wait and not hurry.
Explore and learn as much about race in order to avoid future disappointments. Read between the lines and ask around as much as possible about the health of ancestors and how long they lived. Today there are very few real breeders. What are your priorities when choosing a dog? Do you want show dog or working Doberman? Anyway, in both cases dog's health should be a priority.Doberman unfortunately suffers from many diseases and live shorter and shorter. (DCM,cancer,wobler,head tremor and many other diseases)
Finding a responsible breeder is not easy but it is possible.
I told you what i think about Bazille vom hexenzauber-quite rare genetics and healthy and longevity ancestors.
Unfortunately, for Nanuk I can't say that.

2014-11-06 05:47, IP: 66.86.98.250, from United States 1 positive reactions 5 negative
Thanks very much for answering my question with all that information on Bazille. Im still new and learning so I really like to here what you guys with years of experience have to say. These two were bred over in europe before she was imported to US and I was interested in getting one of the puppies next month.

http://www.dobermann-noblesshof.net/Presentations/Nanuk/Nanuk.htm

http://www.schaumburgdobes.net/Bazille.html

2014-11-06 03:20, IP: 66.86.98.250, from United States 0 positive reactions 2 negative

2014-11-06 00:46, IP: 66.86.98.250, from United States 0 positive reactions 2 negative
Thanks very much for answering my question with all that information on Bazille. Im still new and learning so I really like to here what you guys with years of experience have to say. These two were bred over in europe before she was imported to US and I was interested in getting one of the puppies next month.

http://www.dobermann-noblesshof.net/Presentations/Nanuk/Nanuk.htm

http://www.schaumburgdobes.net/Bazille.html

2014-11-06 00:35, IP: 201.124.244.190, from Mexico 0 positive reactions 2 negative
Thank you all for your suggestions, I'm searching right now..... In the previous post I meant that I was in contact with an European line breeder here in Mexico , but I only know that kennel (Ok I know a couple more but with not a good fame regarding quality, health and good care of their dogs), if any of you know another kennel here I would be really thankful.
Greetings to all

2014-11-05 19:36, IP: 95.87.236.221, from Bulgaria 4 positive reactions 2 negative
Mexico, it is much cheaper for you to pick up a dog in person than have it sent to you via cargo. I sent two pups to Mexico about 6 months ago and they were picked up personally with no problems. If you want show lines, you can start by having a look at this website - look at show results, litter announcements etc. and you'll most likely find what you're looking for. Also, many breeders are listed in the database. For working lines, try working-dog.eu, you also have working line breeders in your own country. You might want to contact von Zeus Tal or Bergkönig.

2014-11-05 16:27, IP: 75.23.184.186, from United States 2 positive reactions 1 negative
Mexico:
I will give you a web site where you will find many good Dobermann breeders. Google
The Working Dobermann Breeders Project.

 

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