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IP: 220.127.116.11, from Germany
What you are writing are the other parts that are against the breed situation , but also very true things, complementary to what IÂ've written.
18.104.22.168, from France
You have also right. The rottweilers passed also through the situation you described. But their problems were mostly the appearance of agressive specimens. They do not have such low genetic diversity like the dobermanns.
But a simple theory can be also applied to a breed situation : if the number of specimens is decreasing , specimens which have good and bad genes also, variety of the genepol will decrease and the frequency of health problems and the genetical bottleneck can appear easily very rapidly. An if we are thinking at the health problems of the breed but also to the lack of the temperament, this botlleneck can be a VERY big problem. So anyone who is thinking seriously to the breed welfare cannot omit any problems which can lead to the end of the breed.
The good hearted, but wrong brained, opponents of docking and cropping couched their argument in terms of just aesthetics. Once this was done, people bought into it and the ban was passed. They pulled the wool over peoples' eyes (idiomatic expression). They equated wanting beauty with being shallow to the detriment of the puppy. There are many flaws with this reasoning.
First (and most important) Herr Dobermann cropped and docked for functional reasons; not because he was an "idiot" or for "shallow" beauty reasons. However, as often happens, when the principle of form follows function is observed, beauty is often the result.
Second: It is human nature to seek beauty; from cars to clothes to spouses. There is nothing shallow about this.
Third: If cropping and docking are cruel to puppies, maybe we should ask the male puppies about having their testicles cut off and female puppies about having their reproductive organs cut out.
The USA has its own problems with the anti-docking and anti-
cropping crowd. It is my understanding that in the USA that a law was passed those only veterinarians can dock and crop. The problem is that USA vet schools do not teach docking and cropping.
Please post the law of your country that says you cannot show docked and cropped Dobermanns. I am interested in reviewing such law.
To those who call me "idiot" and "shallow" you are using the debating ploy of debasing your opponent because you have no sensible counter argument. If you can't add something more intelligent to the conversation, please be quiet.
The comments about lack of genetic diversity are quite true. It must be addressed in a sensible way. I agree there is too much of the same breedings and too much line/inbreeding. I am glad that the coefficient of inbreeding is being used. Unfortunately, it is difficult to calculate.
True Dobermann lovers want the breed as originally developed with improvements as to health and longevity. Letâ€™s unite and be a force to changed things to what they should be. Non Dobermann lovers like it when we are in conflict and decisive because that weakens us as a group.
Best wishes and warm regards to all.
There are health problems I think you can do things about it but not everything can be solved with tests and good breeding.
But I also think that if the dobermann can not be cropped and docked anywhere. The dobermann is not a dobermann anymore. The Dobermann is as he was registered once CROPPED and DOCKED.
For me no shows no working (officialy) is ok but my dobermann will be cropped otherwise I will have to look for a different breed.
"Your argument is silly. Most of the breeders renounce to breed because they cannot sell or give the puppies because ban.
Do you really believe that the breed can construct now anything on the number and quality of dobes beeing in countries with ban ?
How the quality ( also in temperament) went down because the ban in those contriess ? How it will go down in the new countries with ban because of the lower number of litters, breeders ?
And if will be less and less new dobe owners = less dobermann specimens, that will be a big problem, our breed having big problems at this moment at this number of specimens"
Only ONE look at the puppy supply and you can see that the problem is NOT that there is no buyers anymore. The real reason that the breed has problems are the breeders, well most of them anyway. The lack of diversity and development is not because of the lack of buyers. It is simply because these breeders themselves produce the same content in a slightly different package ALL THE TIME. Same males are used over and over again with females who have almost identical backgrounds! Some breeders use same females 5 or even 6 (I have seen also 7) times and with all the same males everyone is using. How does that increase diversity? How does that solve any problems the breed is having? Making the SAME mistakes again and again and expecting different outcome is considered madness! And most of all, how does that bring anything NEW to the breed? New ideas, new buyers, new anything? I must say that MANY dobermann buyers have changed the breed because it is all the same! It is NOT because of the cropping and docking ban but because they do not all want that same old BS that is behind almost every single dobermann in Europe! There are few bold breeders that have the guts to make something different but their load is so minimal that it has relatively NO effect on the breed!
Well if people bought dobermanns only because of their looks then it is a good thing that they do not buy them anymore! Dobermann is a demanding breed. They need an owner who is dedicated into training and who has some common sense. People who buy dogs only because of what they look are usually not suitable owners. There has been SO many problems with dobermanns that they are on the dangerous breeds list all over the world... They are considered vicious and bad tempered dogs almost everywhere. The reason being that all the wrong people bought them and they just did no know how to train them. Now that dobermann does not look so bad ass anymore they buy some other breeds. Which is actually a good thing for dobermanns. True dobermann lovers can concentrate on quality over quantity.
Why are you arguing about cropping and docking ?
The situation was and is obvious. Breeders stoped to breed dobermanns in the countrys which has ban because was and is difficult to sell uncropped dobes. Do not blame any breeder if he stops breeding dobermanns because the ban. They cannot sell their puppies. What to do with the puppies ? Put to sleep the unsold ones or keep them ? Both ways are unacceptable . If a breeder is going to have a lot of dobes because he cannot sell ,or give by free in last instance, will renounce to breed.
To Europe : you are thinking that with cropping the ears a part of the brain of the dobe is cut or why an uncropped can be better , faster, with better temperament than the cropped one ? Your argument is silly. Most of the breeders renounce to breed because they cannot sell or give the puppies because ban. How many dobe breeders are now in Germany , Germany having 40 milion citizens ? Do you really believe that the breed can construct now anything on the number and quality of dobes beeing in countries with ban ? How the quality ( also in temperament) went down because the ban in those contriess ? How it will go down in the new countries with ban because of the lower number of litters, breeders ? I can maybe accept tails ears, but new dog owners most of them not.
And if will be less and less new dobe owners = less dobermann specimens, that will be a big problem, our breed having big problems at this moment at this number of specimens
Yes it is possible to get both good looks and performance but crying over the looks is rather pointless. Ears or not the dog is still the same! If some breeders have stopped because of the ban then that is only a good thing since they were not real dobermann lovers at the first place. If you really like the breed and animals in general you do not care about ears and tail. It is the dog between them that counts!
To Europe ,
I did not say what I prefer ,I said for many people are the look important.
I do not think a Rolls Royce have a bicycle inside it was only to tell the difference between cropped and uncropped , but I would still buy an Italian car that I think look nice .
I wonder why so many good breeders in Europe have stopped breeding since the ban ?Also I wonder why males with 74 to 75 cm and 50 to 60 kg are getting a champion title and used for breeding. ?
Sorry. I meant The Look not The Kook.
Why does it have to be one or the other? This should NOT be about The Kook or The Temoerament. Why not have a beautiful Dobermann with cropped ears and docked tail, and also have great proper Dobermann Temperament?
"I think the look is for many people very important .If you want like and want a Rolls Royce you do not buy a an other which you do like the look at even if the other one might have a better engine."
- Are the looks really so important? I mean would you still want your Rolls Royce if it had a bicycle inside and you would have to paddle it in order to get it to move? Sure it would look pretty but getting the job done would be a real pain in the ass... Maybe it would look pretty standing on your driveway but who really wants a car just to look pretty? I personally would prefer a semi-decent looking car with a good and reliable engine. That is because I really value the performance more than the looks and if I buy a car it is because I need to get from point A to point B reliably. If I had to choose between a cropped dobermann with nothing in the head and a natural dobermann with good drives and self confidence then that would really be a no-brainer wouldnÂ't it? The looks are important only that the breed sustains itÂ's dobermann-like looks and you can tell that it is a dobermann. Also healthy anatomy is important but only in the performance point of view. The anatomy should withstand the sportingdog needs. Ears and tail really have NOTHING to do there! So if you like dobermanns only because they are cropped and docked then maybe you should pick another breed to destroy with your showdog breeding needs!
Boohoo, lets all cry out loud for the softened looks of a dobermann. You must be VERY shallow if you love dobermanns just because their sharp cropped and docked looks?
I think the look is for many people very important .If you want like and want a Rolls Royce you do not buy a an other which you do like the look at even if the other one might have a better engine.
USA . A dobermann is a dobermann with or without tail - with natural or cropped ears. In my country it is illegal to crop and dock, but it is legal to import these dogs, so we are very used to see them here. I have dogs of both kind myself. But when you live in a country were it is illegal to crop and dock, and it is illegal to show them too, it is very inconvenient to have a dog that is cropped and docked if you want to go to shows and trials too.
To: 2013-01-12 14:58, IP: 22.214.171.124, from United States
Boohoo, lets all cry out loud for the softened looks of a dobermann. You must be VERY shallow if you love dobermanns just because their sharp cropped and docked looks? Maybe you should buy a toy dog which you can cut all you want. You must know that the performance in the training field does not improve when you cut ears and tail... Or are you a SHOWDOG person? If you are I understand your frustration and I really laugh at it. You so funny! Go trim your poodles or stare yoursef at the mirror or something...
You now have three different standards for the breed: http://www.justdreams.org/doberman_breed_standard.htm
If you keep changing the standards, at what point is it no longer a Dobermann?
Let's agree to call a dog who is cropped and docked, a Dobermann.
An uncropped dog, a Dopeymann.
And an uncropped and undocked dog, a Deutsch Dopeymann Hound.
I've had my say and enjoyed tweeking your noses.
To the commentator from Germany: According to your logic, the color can be any. And why should I love the dog less because he is fawn, blue, or poka-dot? You need to amend the FCI color standard so as not to discriminate as to color.
I got it: let's call the uncropped and undocked dog a German hound.
To the commenters from Germany, Denmark and Ireland, what was your positon on cropping and docking before your country prohibited it?
If you were opposed to it, then don't be a hypocrite now. If you were in favor of it, thanks for ruining the breed.
I bet you are now trying to justify the prohibition to protect your financial interets. Shame on you.
Long tail and floppy ears is not a Dobermann.
Herr Dobermann had it right.
Give this creature another name.
Don't be self delusional.
I apologize. Not all Americans are as ignorant as this guy.
USA - do you have a bad day or what???
yeah and someone has to say that you are an idiot USA ! if you like dobermanns just because of corpped ears and docked tails than you are even a bigger idiot
Someone has to say that the king has no clothes on.
Dobermans with floppy ears look dopey.
Dobermans with with long tails are an abomination.
If your country does not permit cropping and docking, please stop breeding these ridiculous looking animals. Or you can breed black and tan coonhounds. Or you can move to USA.
Dobermans with floppy ears look dopey.
Dobermans with with long tails are an abomination.
If your country does not permit cropping and docking, please stop breedings these ridiculous looking animals. Or you can breed black and tan coonhounds. Or you can move to USA.
Yes there is responsibilty of the dogs owner, but we all need
to let them grieve to some of us, it like the loss of a family member, only someone who is cold and just into it for the money, would badger someone at the time of their loss, give them time and they will respond.
Belgium is correct, they do also die from Cancer, Liver failure, and whatever else, and nobody gets on that.
I for one am sorry that they lost Fan-Fan, please let them alone until they are ready to tell the world.
Just to let you know I do not have nor do I this breeder, but right is right and wrong is wrong, to question them at this time, if you have a dog from their kennel or any kennel you should be doing health testing!!!!
I agree with US
Why in heck does everyone when a dog dies start rumors or ask if it was cardio? Can you all give the owners time to grieve before they share any info! As you all know that there can be something else a dog can die from other than cardio.
After my knowledge more dogs die of cancer ,but nobody talk about that.
It would be nice if someone could say something positive about the dogs and not only negative. Or to say they are sorry that Fan Fan died to their owners .
If you have a dog used in breeding it has some responsibility!
Like Fedor why did he died was it accident or illness. His mother died of dcm like many from this kennel have done.
Why in heck does everyone when a dog dies start rumors or ask if it was cardio? Can you all give the owners time to grieve before they share any info! As you all know that there can be something else a dog can die from other than cardio. PLEASE WAIT TILL YOU HEAR THE INFO FROM THE OWNER BEFORE YOU START ASKING QUESTIONS and rumors start!
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