Chatboard | Dobermann Review

chatboard chatboard
POST A MESSAGE:
Be constructive! This chatboard is in some way a mirror of our dobermann community - think about what kind of image that mirror reflects before submitting a message.
Anti-spam question: Your favorite dog breed?

Friday, 27th March 2015. All times are CET (Central European Time)

Be advised not to take for granted everything you read here. Posts can be deleted on request.

2831 entries.

« Previous page | Next page »

2014-03-19 12:07, IP: 213.251.189.203, from France 5 positive reactions 0 negative
At USA: did you have her tested on thyriodproblems? Furthermore you can try changing food if you give her dry food like for example Eukanuba etc. Change to raw with perhaps first period extra omega 3 and omega 6.

2014-03-19 01:18, IP: 174.254.160.16, from USA 0 positive reactions 0 negative
I have Red Doberman with considerable hairloss. She has had skin scrapings which showed bacteria only. She has been treated with Cephalexin for one month. There has been no change in her coat.
I would appreciate any suggestions.

2014-03-18 18:00, IP: 91.50.125.70, from Germany 8 positive reactions 1 negative
At USA: I agree with your post. But also see immediately the problems rising. You refer to a few unique healthy dogs and built upon them. I do not mean to be aggressive or negative to your post.. but are those bloodlines still there? If so then we stand a change with what you are writing.

Second problem in my opinion is that the knowledge is fading away with the old breeders. I truly hope that the next generation will educate themselfs with the understanding of breeding. At this moment I sincerely think that majority has no idea what they are doing. Again not here to affend anyone but simply looking at the litterannouncements on the internet.

Like you write, simply outcrossing will not solve the problem but for now is also an idea.
I think we are at the point that all is Russian Roulette but doing nothing will certainly not solve anything.

2014-03-18 16:25, IP: 98.26.91.78, from USA 3 positive reactions 0 negative
When it comes to inbreeding or line breeding, when I advocate for them it’s not with the intention that everyone does them or that it somehow fixes the problems. My point is that if we have just a few unique healthy dogs then they need to be built upon first then used with the general population. If they are simply bred with the general population there is no impact of their genes if there are only two. If on the other hand you make a few select combination choices you can increase that number in one or two generations and have influence through simply line breeding or inbreeding on those dogs.

Inbreeding and line breeding will bring forth the good and the bad. I advocate more for line breeding as a whole with limited inbreeding. They both have their benefits, inbreeding needs to be done with rarity as most tight line breedings can have the same benefits. The biggest problem with inbreeding and line breeding come in the form of the reasons most people do them. It is not to try and improve the health of animals; it is for the phenotypic traits which are generally the conformation. That is why there are so many negatives associated with those type of breedings. That and the fact that people who do them all too often do not know what they are breeding on outside of those phenotypic traits. When done correctly it allows you to see the negatives and build on the positives and when a breeder is trying to do right with their dogs then they can work away from the negatives.

We are at a point where we have a set fixed number of problems in this breed. Simply outcrossing all dogs will not fix them. We need breeders with breeding programs focused on fixing them. Building on health, working to eliminate the problems in their dogs while still working to produce a better dog. If we had a handful of breeders doing that then there could be the real potential for health and growth in this breed. First though we need breeders focused on trying to eliminate the problems.

2014-03-16 18:17, IP: 95.76.206.187, from Romania 6 positive reactions 3 negative
that is true . the inbreeding increase the probabilities to bring at surface the common genes of parents . this is the explanation of dobermann breed actual diseases because reduced genepool to trend dogs and nothing else .
How long this dominant trend lines breeding mode will not be changed , this race will be damned to death . No negociation against natural laws .

2014-03-16 11:59, IP: 95.87.236.221, from Bulgaria 6 positive reactions 0 negative
Romania, I was referring to dogs in general, not just Dobermanns. Even the healthiest dogs which live to 20 years carry a few bad genes in heterozygous form. Humans do, too. My point was that if you inbreed and linebreed, you increase the chance of the dog carrying MORE than a few bad genes in heterozygous form or all carrying the same bad genes in heterozygous form. This then leads to extreme cases where what was once a recessive diseases becomes dominant in the breed and impossible to get rid of.

2014-03-16 08:51, IP: 95.76.206.187, from Romania 2 positive reactions 5 negative
Few bad genes ?HA HA
Dears, any dobermann is FULLY by hundredths and thousandths of times by again and again shit bad genes. Hundredths of times !
Are you all blind or don;t want to recognise propre monstruouse creation ?


----------------
2014-03-16 01:20, IP: 95.87.236.221, from Bulgaria 0 positive reactions 0 negative

All dogs carry a few bad genes in heterozygous form, and the more you inbreed, the higher of a chance there is for the genes to be expressed

2014-03-16 01:20, IP: 95.87.236.221, from Bulgaria 6 positive reactions 0 negative
USA: Of course the first two generations are not the only generations to look at, however, with many dogs sharing common ancestry further back, I believe it is important to see up close how the relation to certain relatives manifested. For example, not all dogs descended from Gino Gomez died young, and in longer lived lines there are also dogs that were short-lived and died from cancer etc. I don't believe that with all things considered, two dogs sharing much of the same ancestry 4 generations back but one having dogs with normal life spans up close and the other full of short lived dogs, are to be considered equal. And yes, all dogs have some ill health behind them at some point.

Another thing I should mention following my last point about using a sire from common lines (even if he is unpopular himself), is that it is part of my strategy to try to introduce diversity. If we turn it into a human analogy, let's put it this way:

If you want to introduce Fanta to someone who has never tasted it, do you
a) offer it to them diluted with water (common lines)
or
b) offer it to them mixed with beer which they do not like (less common lines), in a questionable combination?

I will use a dog from less common lines next year. As you saw, there was not much interest in this year's litter. I'll get back to you all about the next :-).

---

On another note - until we can specifically select against bad genes, there is no guarantee that linebreeding or inbreeding on long lived dogs is going to improve the overall health of the breed. All dogs carry a few bad genes in heterozygous form, and the more you inbreed, the higher of a chance there is for the genes to be expressed. And especially since nobody is breeding like old timers (this is the age of hobby breeders), with highly inbred experimental litters culling those that inherited the bad genes etc., we are not going to find out the bad stuff until much later.

Even if someone manages to eliminate some of the illnesses such as DCM from a line, there is no telling what would pop up - dogs more prone to Wobblers, eye problems, liver problems, kidney dysplasia etc. etc. This is not to say that we should not work towards breeding healthier dogs, but there is no 100% certain method to eliminating some bad genes without influencing others. When you remove one dog from the population, you don't remove just some of the bad genes, you remove all of the genes and further decrease genetic diversity. We should all be striving to maintain diversity, not breed sick dogs, but also not further narrow the gene pool even further by avoiding entire lines or regional populations.

2014-03-15 18:21, IP: 98.26.91.78, from USA 4 positive reactions 0 negative
Romania,

Having a list of dogs means nothing if the way those dogs influence isn’t taken into consideration. When we go to the beginning ALL Dobermanns have the same few dogs thousands of times. But yes, we have the same blood lines when you get back there, there are dogs that cannot be avoided anymore, and when it comes to those dogs it matters the influence. It matters both in percentage and in how those dogs produced. You do not mention Hella v. Forell, she is 7 x Quirinus, 7 x Ebo, and 1 time x Graf Guido, now with Quirinus and Ebo she may be there the same number of times but with a HUGELY different influence, with Quirinus she is at 2.5391%, Ebo on the other hand she is at 12.5%, and for Graf Guido only 1.5625%.

2014-03-15 17:21, IP: 95.76.206.187, from Romania 2 positive reactions 2 negative
when i said first dangerouse , in my native language mean most dangerouse .
same genetic all around .

Ascendent number quirinus # ebo # guido

BRYAN V. FORELL 7 # 2 # 4
ALEX V. KLEINWALDHEIM 405 # 144 # 201
LUMP V. HAGENSTOLZ 71 # 24 # 34
ODIN V FORELL 13 # 3 # 6
DIETER V. WILLERSEE 467 # 247 # 285
VELLO V. FÜRSTENFELD 10 # 3 # 6
KIRA V. ROMBERG 10 # 3 # 6
DINA V. KLOCKENHOF 111 # 31 # 54
ALF V. HAGENFREUND 130 # 43 # 61
CITA GERMANIA 15 # 3 # 7
CAROLA V. SÜDHARZ 367 # 169 # 217
AJAX V. SIMBACH 354 # 171 # 215
FALKO V. HAGENSTOLZ 15 # 3 # 8
BORDO V. FÜRSTENFELD 20 # 11 # 9
CITTA V. FÜRSTENFELD 11 # 3 # 7
FRIDO V. RAUHFELSEN 462 # 454 # 470
ADDI V. HAGENSTOLZ 166 # 64 # 80
IRIS V FORELL 13 # 3 # 6
ARCO OF FAYETTE CORNER 12 # 1 # 6
ASTA V. GROSS HAGEN 248 # 121 # 150
BINGO V DORNBERG 18 # 10 # 7
CARMEN V. FELSINGPASS 34 # 14 # 16
AMSEL V. HAGENSTOLZ 152 # 56 # 74
CHICO V. FORELL 5 # 3 # 2
KITTY V. HAGENSTOLZ (DZB 70083 38 # 6 # 18
AMOR V. HAUS BORMES 90 # 25 # 47
HORST V.D. BISMARCKSÄULE 384 # 498 # 479
ILKA V ROMBERG 10 # 3 # 6
TROLL V.D. ENGELSBURG 399 # 643 # 603
ALF V.D. GEER 126 # 49 # 67
ERKO V. NOTBURGATAL 309 # 252 # 268
BLANKA V. FÜRSTENLAGER 309 # 252 # 267
ALF V. STEIGER 277 # 213 # 239
MIRA V. HAGENSTOLZ 271 # 196 # 235
CÄSAR V. KLOCKENHOF 63 # 33 # 26
ANJA V. WELEBERG 36 # 15 # 15
CASAR V. WEIDENECK 15 # 3 # 7
RENI GERMANIA 15 # 3 # 7
DIRK V. GOLDBERG 19 # 3 # 9
VILJA GERMANIA 20 # 10 # 7
etc..etc ...

2014-03-15 13:08, IP: 98.26.91.78, from USA 3 positive reactions 0 negative
Ebo was not the first dangerous dog, he was of that generation the problem dog, and he is today still a problem through a new round of popular dogs from him. I know very well what receives are but by your post I wonder if you understand them. Part of the benefit of line breeding and inbreeding is it gives you a way to breed out certain traits and see if there really are problems. If we start inbreeding and line breeding on dogs with consistent longevity things can change. For example there are a number of dog line bred on Hertog Alpha and Graaf Quirinus without Ebo's influence that do have consistent longevity, this would indicate there is longevity there. Even going to your previous list Hertog Alpha father of Quirinus, Graf Guido, Gingo, grandfather of Gamon, Jivago - all over 10 with the exception of Graf Guido who died of cancer at 9. The breed is not lost as long as some breeders work for change and learn their dogs and lines.

2014-03-15 07:22, IP: 95.76.206.187, from Romania 3 positive reactions 0 negative
I do not start any war . To defend this breed against a ill domination maybe can named war , but that do not mean that I start a war .
It is so hard to offer freedom in breeding for all bloodlines ? Yes , is hard because the dominance is convenable . This breeding was transformed in a industrial breeding $$$$ system where are involved judges , doctors , food industry , expansive training , advertising and personal interests. That persons which construct entire this system have not so big interest to change . For them is convenable . Few of them will have oportunity to ascend in ierarhy . That do not mean that something will be changed !

The true changing can come only from you , dobermann lovers . Ask your rights to breed free a healtly dobermann ! You are not in hitlerist army ! This is your soul passion not a INDUSTRY dominated by their rules !
Get the race back !

2014-03-15 06:29, IP: 95.76.206.187, from Romania 2 positive reactions 0 negative
USA, when a dog which live 12 years have same genetic and descend from same family with Ebo for example - which is considered first dangerouse dog , what conclusion can you get ?
Did you know what mean a " general genepool recesive ilnesses " ? This is the term which explain what happen now in dobermann breed . This genetic have NO chance so survive because they are AGAINST NATURE . More soon or late they will die .
They have only one chance , to be mixed with healtly bloodline . The problem is that there do not exist more healtly lines .

Nostradamus will tell you again what will happen in the next score of years : MORE OF LESS ALL WILL BE MIXED . ALL . The reduction of genepool will continue till a critic point .
If the problems will be not solved , in a day, after years, will be MANDATORY to renounce forever to dobermann originality and introduce in breed , for solve health problems OTHER FOREIGN RACE (after actual grat danisation which destroyed dobermann breed with molosoidal ilnesses)

I hope Nostradamus prophecy to don't become reality !
YOU can change this prophecy IF WILL CUT THE TESTICLES OF THIS AGAINST NATURE SYSTEM and WILL BE USED ALL , ABSOLUTELY ALL VERY RARE and still healtly bloodlines !!

Otherwhise .... now you know ! No negociation . Against nature you can't negociate !

2014-03-15 06:27, IP: 24.217.218.237, from USA 1 positive reactions 1 negative
Is Izrafel Maya di Altobello alive?

2014-03-15 01:08, IP: 98.26.91.78, from USA 1 positive reactions 0 negative
Romania: The breed is dead if we do not try and save it. Complaining about dogs does nothing if you don't take action to change it. You make this list of dogs but it's disjointed and several of the dogs you mention are closely related and lived to be old. That's not to say they did not produce problems. I wonder why you not mention GGdC at all, that is a dog that can be avoided still. Even Ebo can be avoided in some dogs. The working lines also have their own problem dog in Hertog Conan.

Bulgaria: I think you are on the right track, but there's more to it. Sometimes the latter 4 or 5 are more important than those first two generations depending on the dogs you are bringing together. They are all important though. Especially if we want to make a change in this breed. It's bringing together the right dogs to build from and knowing those dogs. It's also drawing a line in the sand now and saying we will no longer use certain dogs. We do have the power to build better dogs but it is an effort to work together, to be open to views, to discussion, to a desire for knowledge. The desire for knowledge being what we need the most and is lacking the most in the breed. It also has to be about what makes the combinations unique, not just that they are unique.

2014-03-12 20:53, IP: 95.76.206.187, from Romania 6 positive reactions 3 negative
You are wrong . Except some dogs from working lines and few Easterns dogs which escaped and now are mixed , all actual dobermanns , back than 5 generations have same ancestors : Odin, Chico , Brian and scores of others Forells , tones of Frankenhorsts,
Nerland Stamms from Olive and Quirinus again and again , Royals and Renewals , Hertog Alpha again and again , Gamon , Gringo and Guido , Festus Neerland Stam which in reality is another Olive descenant (as Don Dayan ), Ebo Groote Maat, Alva and Amarilda . This is a genetical reality . That dogs genetical diminance killed dobermann breed.

-------------
2014-03-12 13:01, IP: 91.0.158.82, from Germany 3 positive reactions 0 negative

At Germany: But I believe that if we try to put in more diversity and use dogs who are not in the picture or without all those so called titles and ZTP we slowly can spread the genepool. I firmly believe that is what we need.

2014-03-12 20:39, IP: 95.87.236.221, from Bulgaria 12 positive reactions 1 negative
The problem is even if you sell all the puppies, if they all go to pet homes and no one is interested in doing anything with them then despite your best efforts, you are still not impacting on the overall genetic diversity of the breed. The dogs have to be a part of the breeding population to make a difference.

2014-03-12 20:27, IP: 95.87.236.221, from Bulgaria 5 positive reactions 0 negative
There are several reasons why I chose him:
1) of the dogs in similar ages, he had one of the best Echo Doppler results
2) many stud owners are not open to doing more health tests and I refuse to use untested dogs
3) I could find information on the first two generations at least (there are several breeders who won't even tell you if a dog is alive or dead - and I don't want to use the descendent of a possible "zombie").

I plan to keep importing in future (and yes I meant diversity with my import bitch), and in the upcoming litters, I will be using different lines including working line dogs. But as you can see, even with a dog from fairly well known lines (even if the stud is not popular himself), there is very little interest. I imagine there would be even less if I were to use for example Zamu Les Deux Peupliers or Criss Royal Dux.

So, what should I do? It would be nice if there was a small group of breeders who are doing the same thing or hold similar opinions and we could all pool our resources and maintain genetic diversity. Of course, that's just a dream :-).

2014-03-12 20:01, IP: 130.180.250.202, from Serbia 6 positive reactions 1 negative
One interesting female:
http://www.dobermannpedigrees.nl/modules/pedigree/pedigree.php?pedid=233918
COI:10.36%
Partial inbreeding to:Cassi v Bayern 7.47%

2014-03-12 19:53, IP: 130.180.250.202, from Serbia 7 positive reactions 1 negative
@bulgaria
I assume that you are owner of Black Athirat kennel...
I can only partly agree with you regarding spreading genepool and adding diversity in our breed(it is your imported bitch Megan (Diaz)

But why you used DJ dei Nobili Nati?He represents the same gene pool as majority of today's dobermanns (Gino Gomez,2xAstor del Citone,Arielle amour del citone,Antosarte del citone,Tigr,Ugor,Indira...)all of them are the dogs which should be avoided.

2014-03-12 16:51, IP: 95.87.236.221, from Bulgaria 8 positive reactions 0 negative
France - I currently have a litter "bred outside the box", and there is very little interest. Parents both have titles, fully health tested etc. The fact is people, even pet people, want a certain look, certain lines etc. I'm not going to switch to popular stud dogs any time soon, but I can understand that especially as a new breeder, experimenting and ending up with a bunch of unsold puppies can be something of a deterrent.

2014-03-12 13:09, IP: 91.0.158.82, from Germany 4 positive reactions 0 negative
P.S. I am on holiday now in Germany, so same person as France.

At Bulgaria:
I really do not believe you will have problems selling puppies. Majority of puppies go to families who want to have a pet dog. Only few go to owners who will go to show or train with them.

At Germany: you can not get any guarentee, even when our breed would be healthy. But I believe that if we try to put in more diversity and use dogs who are not in the picture or without all those so called titles and ZTP we slowly can spread the genepool. I firmly believe that is what we need.

Ofcourse we can not quickly fix what has been destroyed for years, but I hope you agree that if we continue in the path now chosen the Dobermann breed will be dead soon.

I do not have the answers or a quick rescueplan. I can only say, if we continue all with the same bloodlines (all running to the same pricewinning dogs) there is no rescue.

I know for a fact that in some countries there are bloodlines who are more healthy then the popular ones. They are only not used because of the fear of breeders they will not sell puppies. That is ridiculous.

Breeding should always be for the love of the breed and trying to improve the quality, not make quick money.

2014-03-12 13:01, IP: 91.0.158.82, from Germany 4 positive reactions 0 negative
At Bulgaria:
I really do not believe you will have problems selling puppies. Majority of puppies go to families who want to have a pet dog. Only few go to owners who will go to show or train with them.

At Germany: you can not get any guarentee, even when our breed would be healthy. But I believe that if we try to put in more diversity and use dogs who are not in the picture or without all those so called titles and ZTP we slowly can spread the genepool. I firmly believe that is what we need.

Ofcourse we can not quickly fix what has been destroyed for years, but I hope you agree that if we continue in the path now chosen the Dobermann breed will be dead soon.

I do not have the answers or a quick rescueplan. I can only say, if we continue all with the same bloodlines (all running to the same pricewinning dogs) there is no rescue.

I know for a fact that in some countries there are bloodlines who are more healthy then the popular ones. They are only not used because of the fear of breeders they will not sell puppies. That is ridiculous.

Breeding should always be for the love of the breed and trying to improve the quality, not make quick money.

2014-03-12 05:57, IP: 95.76.206.187, from Romania 3 positive reactions 2 negative
Germany, I can't .
Now, healtly lines do not exist . All was total losted or mixed .

2014-03-12 05:10, IP: 80.129.208.242, from Germany 1 positive reactions 1 negative
w.a. please name us the healthy lines !

2014-03-12 02:53, IP: 95.87.236.221, from Bulgaria 3 positive reactions 1 negative
France - nice idea and I hold the same opinion. But what happens when you do breed outside of the box and then you have problems selling puppies :-)

2014-03-11 21:35, IP: 95.76.206.187, from Romania 3 positive reactions 1 negative
The problem is genetical and after score of years , there do not remained more alternatives . Was needed other 10 years to understand the problems of this breed . 10 losted years .
Now will need another 10 years to change something in this system and to preserve actual genepool . The problem is that the actual genepool can't be improved on health .
To improve the health of imense number of actual dobermanns is needed INFUSION OF HEALTHY DOBERMANNS . 1) the system is not ready to accept them , they are eliminated from shows , show breeders still do not want them 2) all the longevive lines are almost extincted and mixed , the last genersations are every year losted in anonimity .
Doberman race have more than a political problem. Have a BIG GENETICAL PROBLEM .
This is my opinion , and I know very well what i say.

2014-03-11 19:37, IP: 213.251.189.203, from France 13 positive reactions 1 negative
What breeders need to do is think for themselfs. Does a dog really need all those titles. Does a dog really need a ZTP what is fixed. Ofcourse the basic idea of mr. Vogel was good. But nowadays most dogs train for half a year or more... it says nothing anymore about the character of the dog.

In most countries you can breed without the ZTP and without all titles like America said earlier. The focus should be on health, than character and confirmation. Puppy buyers want a healthy dog and one who is looking and acting like a Dobermann. In normal daily situations you can observe the dogs and get a pretty good idea how his or her character is. Breeders should have the courage to think different and choose different.

The first step should be a greater diversity of bloodlines. Step out of the box and try something different. We do not need the DV or the IDC to think and act in order to try and rescue our beloved breed.

DV or IDC is of no importance, just change course as breeder and stop following the so called leaders.

2014-03-06 19:07, IP: 95.76.206.187, from Romania 18 positive reactions 2 negative
Basical , the selection is important for any race and it is a breeding important tool . the selection mean to select the best products or a product which have a very rare or preciouse character and to increase a entire population value .
Now let see what mean selection in dobermann breed :
-mean a trained test when very well trained dobermanns pass a non native selection
-mean much moneys $$$$$ involved
-mean restrictions for large population
-mean only few judges which have the judgement monopol
-mean the reduction of entire genepool till actual grave genepool bottle neck
-mean a sick and ill domination of show bloodliens and elimination from breeding and from many countries of large populations
-mean the actual domination of DCM, Cancer, Wobbler, Skeleton problems , torsions, imunitar system ,

How we can solve that ?
- we must to reevaluate the trial and find new tests which put accent on NATIVITY and eliminate TRAINERS from dobermann selection . Only the NATIVE character is wroted in genetical ADN , the trainers only get the $$$ and because their training change the selection RESULTS , they introduced the FALISTY in dobermann breed .
-We need new and capable judges which really know this breed .
- The Selection must be DIECTE an FREE for every dobermann with pedigree . Any normal dobermann must to pass the selection .
-The selection must be based on points system , nobody is eliminated . For mating is necessary MINIMAL 10 points from both parents . In this mode any generation average value is superior than anterior and the entire genepool is porotected .
-any dobermann with pedigree must to have pedigree . the pedigree is a borned right as borned origin document on humans . The show, working and health performance and selection score must be writed on any pedigree . All dobermanns are egual , all dobermanns have life right . The differance is wroted by their performance and scores .

2014-03-06 06:03, IP: 95.76.206.187, from Romania 6 positive reactions 6 negative
Ivan, Wib-lis or Becht enter here to read your site ?
I saw a negative vote on my anterior post :-)

 

« Previous page | Next page »

1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  48  49  50  51  52  53  54  55  56  57  58  59  60  61  62  63  64  65  66  67  68  69  70  71  72  73  74  75  76  77  78  79  80  81  82  83  84  85  86  87  88  89  90  91  92  93  94  95 

Archives ›