2012-02-05 21:20, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

10 positive reactions         0 negative

no the dobermann breed was not for dog fighting ....it was bred to protect its master ,....its loyalty is as protector to his master who was of course louis dobermann .....
but still the cropped ears as said gives the alert expression ....and more business like than the long hanging ears of a hound like dog .....which many uncropped dobermanns have .....some do have the petal like ears from the terrier ...but not all ....
c

2012-02-05 21:15, IP: 204.45.133.74, from United States

6 positive reactions         0 negative

I know this theory of Marshak. But it's his theory. I remain at predators, which have better hearing with erect ears

2012-02-05 21:08, IP: 204.45.133.74, from United States

6 positive reactions         0 negative

And UK : Louis Doberman didn't wanted to have a dog for dog fightings ( only in this case your theory regarding cropped ears because injuries is right), but a guard dog which must had all senses , also the ability of hear, very well developed. Look what all dogs are doing with their ears when they hear something. It's a matter of acustics. They use their ears as amplifiers and their erect ears are used like waveguides and amplifiers. All wild predators have erect ears because they can hear better.

2012-02-05 21:08, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

0 positive reactions         0 negative

http://www.dobermann.com/marshak.htm

2012-02-05 20:52, IP: 204.45.133.74, from United States

1 positive reactions         0 negative

"2012-02-05 20:27 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom 0 positive reactions         0 negative

i agree with you usa ,,,,,but on ear cropping ...ears were orginally cropped ....because they had no antibiotics if injured ...but it is thought that the breed pioneers wanted the breed to have cropped ears ...thus structured the shape of the head to go well with the ears ....also the short coat breeds suited best the docking of the tail ....you give a very good example with the Erdelyi kopo as the undocked ...all natural dobermann looks very much like that

...but yes i do believe the cropped ear dog dog look more meancing than the natural .... maybe through hollywood aswell ......if you watch boys from brazil ...the dogs look much more fericious than any german shephard on film .....always the dobermann looks more like the guard dog .....this is the image portrayed to the general public ...that created the reputation of the breed ......this reputation may have been to its negative at some point by it was gained ........but otherwise you are quite right it was its natural look it seemed to be cropped and docked ...and i agree with all your other points "

Maybe in some cases you are right , some people choosed dobermans because they saw some movies from Hollywood . But 35 years ago when I choosed the doberman to be my second dog ( I had only one dog when I was child till my first doberman ) I haven't seen any movies with dobermans. I just bought a book regarding dog breeds, I looked to all the dogs and I choosed doberman because he was presented as an athletic , smart, devoted to his owner and with great working abilities but also because I liked the athletic elegant look of it. And I am very sad that those reasonsand qualities why I choosed this breed is going to disappear :(

2012-02-05 20:27, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

2 positive reactions         0 negative

i agree with you usa ,,,,,but on ear cropping ...ears were orginally cropped ....because they had no antibiotics if injured ...but it is thought that the breed pioneers wanted the breed to have cropped ears ...thus structured the shape of the head to go well with the ears ....also the short coat breeds suited best the docking of the tail ....you give a very good example with the Erdelyi kopo as the undocked ...all natural dobermann looks very much like that

...but yes i do believe the cropped ear dog dog look more meancing than the natural .... maybe through hollywood aswell ......if you watch boys from brazil ...the dogs look much more fericious than any german shephard on film .....always the dobermann looks more like the guard dog .....this is the image portrayed to the general public ...that created the reputation of the breed ......this reputation may have been to its negative at some point by it was gained ........but otherwise you are quite right it was its natural look it seemed to be cropped and docked ...and i agree with all your other points
c

2012-02-05 19:47, IP: 204.45.133.74, from United States

5 positive reactions         3 negative

"
2012-02-05 17:53 • IP: 79.1.72.100 • from Italy 0 positive reactions         0 negative

2012-02-05 17:18 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom

yes and a dobermann natural or not had always 42 theeth, the best working dogs are natural, finland germany, holland belgium, I had no idea of english dogs, I think that they are not soo good, but probably I don't know really well the situation in england.

.you think the dog looks a deterrant like that?
probaly you don't know that is not the face of a dog, like a litthe devil that make the deterrant because the most stupi dog that I have seen in all my life was a gigantic rott, stupid but really ferocious, so if you want come here and go in his home, without the owner, no problen, he is natural dog so no deterrend................but perfect as a killer machine.

me dobermann was believed to be a tax collector and a town dog officer, so in a world of ignorants he made his dog equal a devil , dark and with cropped ears, now we had the Beretta's Smith and Wesson, so please tell us a real thing, don't scamble up to the mirrors............

sorry for my english, I hope that you understand me "

Itally you are in a great error like DV was (or DV leadership was only ignorant when they didn't fight against ban cropping). First of all you are not thinking to the results of banning or breed standard changing , or you do not care and you want to be just interesting in writing on a chatboard. If you do not know what change made this law in Germany ,Holland and Itally will be with same results regarding the number of breeders, try to find. Germany after so many years didn't recome in even close situation to what was before the ban. And these are statistical facts and not supositions regarding what I want or what you want.
This ban reduced in a very high degree the number of dobermans, so what about genetical diversity ? With so many problems which our breed has ,a low genetical diversity is good or bad ?
Like in many cases stupid thinking from Germany and stupid acting from that country gave very bad results on the whole Europe, sometimes with bad results for the whole world. So if Germany falled with no fight agtainst that ban, gave other bans in other countries, because in Europe Germany must be followed, it gives the way to follow.
Regardfing ferocious look : if I follow your theory that erect eras give a ferocious look for a dogs head , that means that German Shepherd and also Farao dogs look ferocious :). You cannot understand or you do not want to see that erect ears for dobermans gives an elegant look, an athletic dog look like also the lack of tail gives to the doberman.
When somebody choosed this breed ( like in other breeds case) they did this for something , one beeing the look, other the character. The character is going to garbbage more and more, now also the look. It looks like an Erdelyi kopo with ears and tail ( go to see the FCI standard and pictures how these dogs look like).
On the other hand you think that Louis Doberman choosed the erect ear because the look or because the erect ears functionality in better hearing ? A ferocious dog must not have erect ears, so your theory is wrong.
Try to sell doberman puppies with tail , you will see how many people will want to buy or take for nothing. If you cannot give the puppies as breeder , you will renounce to breed.
God save the dobermann breed, because people with your style of thinking will not help it.

2012-02-05 18:21, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

1 positive reactions         1 negative

i am sure italy has good working dogs ....my 2 bitches could work from there ....and my female from tyson di campo ....would not back down so easily and she bite without fear to protect ....hard type ....she would be difficult though to subordinate
c

2012-02-05 18:08, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

5 positive reactions         0 negative

yes i agree with you about england ..its always had not a good chance to progress ...our old quarantine laws would leave a dog a mental and physical wreck .....and we would be sent the crap ......when our import laws did improve .....we had the docking tails stopped .....imo the breed in england has good movement ..good in rear ....but needed the strength of good heads coming from europe and stronger character .....but not sure what the situation is now with the docking ban ....most properly lots of breeders have stopped ,,,,,

i know about the character of rottweillers and yes i agree they still have character intact ....and know somebody who works dobermanns for real and has mixed to strengthen the character ....i know and have owned dobermanns who will attack for real ....but in reality always best to have a dog that looks meancing or you may be facing a lawsuit or your dog destroyed ,,,,

and you mention about a gun ...again you could find yourself in trouble ...a detterant is better a dog that looks like it will do something even if it cant ..hopeully it wouldnt have to prove different .......but for me otto geller ...other breed pioneers designed the head in such way ...it was perfect for cropped ears ....the short coat perfect for docked tails ......sorry but for me ...the lawmakers have destroyed the look....dont worry your english is fine .;) ....
c

2012-02-05 17:53, IP: 79.1.72.100, from Italy

3 positive reactions         1 negative

2012-02-05 17:18 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom

yes and a dobermann natural or not had always 42 theeth, the best working dogs are natural, finland germany, holland belgium, I had no idea of english dogs, I think that they are not soo good, but probably I don't know really well the situation in england.

.you think the dog looks a deterrant like that?
probaly you don't know that is not the face of a dog, like a litthe devil that make the deterrant because the most stupi dog that I have seen in all my life was a gigantic rott, stupid but really ferocious, so if you want come here and go in his home, without the owner, no problen, he is natural dog so no deterrend................but perfect as a killer machine.

me dobermann was believed to be a tax collector and a town dog officer, so in a world of ignorants he made his dog equal a devil , dark and with cropped ears, now we had the Beretta's Smith and Wesson, so please tell us a real thing, don't scamble up to the mirrors............

sorry for my english, I hope that you understand me

2012-02-05 17:46, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

0 positive reactions         1 negative

out of the example u gave you tell me which looks the real dobermann...seeing u said we dont have an eye ......no disrespect ...to the sire of enzo as his sire nitro rio bianco was a real champion and producer
http://www.steinigerweg.fr/prochaineportee.htm

2012-02-05 17:29, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

3 positive reactions         1 negative

and sorry i dont like a dog with big tan markings ...and curved breakfast bowl shaped heads

2012-02-05 17:24, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

7 positive reactions         1 negative

infact of the 2 crimes against the breed the bigger is the stopping of the docking ......giving the breed that curled up thin unprotected unbrella handle worm tail is a pure mockery of the breed
c

2012-02-05 17:18, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

8 positive reactions         3 negative

italy you obviously have the natural dobermann ...and i would guess only interested in working them ......of course coming from england i have owned uncropped ....aswell as cropped ...but the real dobermann was designed to be cropped ....infact natural ears and docked tail isnt too bad .....but the both natural ....looks a real mess ...you think the dog looks a deterrant like that?
.and it destroys the breed in the countries its not allowed ....you think its correct to defend?
its making a puppet of a breed that was designed by man ....to applease the lawmakers ..the breed was created to have looks and work ...not just for work and not just for show ....and if the law takes hold in italy it destroy the breed there also as it has in germany ......
c

2012-02-05 17:03, IP: 91.96.7.179, from Germany

1 positive reactions         1 negative

Italy,

thats what I mean...

2012-02-05 16:22, IP: 79.1.72.100, from Italy

6 positive reactions         10 negative

the dobermann is always a dobermann cropped or not. but uncropped is only for people which had the "eyes".
The 90 percent of people which want a dog cropped and docked doesn't undestnad if the dog is high quality, they only want the 3 cuts.
nothing more.
in belgium there ia a superb dog uncropped and undocked

BISS. WCh. MCh. ENZO VAN DE DONAUHOEVE in holland there are some amazing dogs also in france, germany not be blind.

2012-02-05 15:59, IP: 91.96.7.179, from Germany

4 positive reactions         3 negative

"Adel" is not based on the size of ears or tails. And not every cropped dobermann is looking "adelig". Its a question of the complete appearance, including the course of movement!

2012-02-05 14:42, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

5 positive reactions         0 negative

i think this is what is being lost in the breed with these laws etc ...the word in german is adel
c

2012-02-05 13:34, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

5 positive reactions         2 negative

I don't need a "good looking" = cropped dog

some working peoples views above ...why did you choose a breed that was cropped and docked.?...why did u choose a breed that has been shown for 100 years for selection with a breed standard? .....even if there is politics ......maybe its the wrong breed for you .....

malonis ...natural tail ...natural ears ....no shows ....no real breed standard .....can play with each weekend at sports competes well ,,,,,,surely much better choice ......and you dont have to try tell people to change breed or worry about show politics ..problem solved hey
c

2012-02-05 13:17, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

9 positive reactions         2 negative

germany a doberman is bred to look good work ....if you dont care how a dobermann should look as said your be far better off with a malinos ....because the fact is the dobermann is show dog aswell .....the shows will not end .....with a malinos you most properly got overall a far better working dog ...without the worry how it looks and about shows and thats a fact ....
c

2012-02-05 13:12, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

5 positive reactions         2 negative

germany made a mistake ...making ztp not an optional thing ....it booted out there top breeder herr palmer .....then with the ztp in place booted out there well respected herr vogel .....then on top of that no fight against dock and crop ban .....and your suprised the italians and others took over lol
c

2012-02-05 13:05, IP: 91.96.7.179, from Germany

5 positive reactions         6 negative

These ridiculous shows are vanity fairs and I can only laugh about these people and their dogs.

I don't need a "good looking" = cropped dog. What I need is a dog witch can compete with other breeds. Not such cripples with pseudo-champion titles.

Because of over-characterization these dogs are looking like cartoons and not like dobermanns.

2012-02-05 12:38, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

8 positive reactions         1 negative

same as in holland ...beligium ..where are all the big kennel names now? finished ...because of the ban ....
c

2012-02-05 12:30, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

6 positive reactions         1 negative

and if some working people are quite happy with a doberman looking like a hound ...and wish to tell others to change breed if they dont ...maybe they should be the ones and change to a malinos ...at least it looks natural with a tail ......and can do there sports with it ....without the fuss of worrying about how it looks ....i should imagine it outperform must dobermanns aswell so your be much happier
c

2012-02-05 12:24, IP: 188.29.216.47, from United Kingdom

8 positive reactions         1 negative

maybe so germany but you can not put right the biggest destroyer of the breed in germany was the banning of the crop and dock ...the once great show the dv sieger ....is now long gone ....the bundessieger ...one of the most important titles for a dobermann now gone .....and this has caused the idc title to become more important .... and for other countries where the ban is not in place to lead the way .......and sorry but the doberann with a tail and ears is no longer a dobermann ....its mocking the creators ....so you go keep your hound dog but keep it for yourself because it no longer looks like a guard dog ...
c

2012-02-05 07:42, IP: 91.96.7.179, from Germany

9 positive reactions         3 negative

2012-02-04 17:34 • IP: 46.107.72.13 • from Hungary
8 positive reactions 2 negative

Well, we can leave IDC and DV and breed the Dobermann like he is supposed to be.
Why must the the whole world do what DV want. It is a lot of countries in the world who have no cropping ban .
In my opinion DV has destroyed the Dobermann in Germany.

No, not only the DV has destroyed the breed, but those, wo are using always the same studs, like Fedor and or Gino. Those who are responsible for the lack of genes in the population. And those are destroying the breed, who are breeding dobermanns looking like porkers....

Breed your own dobermann, BUT keep it for yourself.

2012-02-04 17:45, IP: 93.47.46.116, from Italy

5 positive reactions         0 negative

Where can we read Caliandro Trophy' results?
Why didn't they published yet?

2012-02-04 17:34, IP: 46.107.72.13, from Hungary

17 positive reactions         3 negative

Well, we can leave IDC and DV and breed the Dobermann like he is supposed to be.
Why must the the whole world do what DV want. It is a lot of countries in the world who have no cropping ban .
In my opinion DV has destroyed the Dobermann in Germany.

2012-02-04 14:13, IP: 79.119.193.6, from Romania

17 positive reactions         2 negative

UK IP: 93.186.31.242 , go and take YOU another breed !!!!!!!!!!!!

2012-02-04 12:36, IP: 188.28.243.55, from United Kingdom

14 positive reactions         2 negative

i would think if the orginal creators could see what has happened to the breed ..the destruction of a look ..they would also wash there hands with it ....so change the standard and name same time then people can clearly wash there hands of the breed ...and leave the dog with people who dont care about a hounddog x whippet look
c