I used to come here and read everything with interest and great pleasure. But not anymore, after a few months not reading, I see everything is still the same.

This whole website is great, the chatboard, forum and everything.. big compliments for that fact.

BUT...

The forum is almost dead, the chatting among Dobermann friends is almost dead.. why?

It's all about one person who seems to know it all and no normal conversation is possible anymore without hundreds of posts from Valencia.

What I don't understand is that the webmasters of this site allow this to happen. Instead of a place worldwide to be among Dobermann lovers, owners and breeders almost everybody gets tired and stays away!

When is enough...enough?

KR Simone
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about who is and who no a surrogate , in nexct years I am sure the DNA test will clarrify that and will show that with precision .
We will see the truth ..let say ..in 10 years ....:-)
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Correcture:

DOBERMANN = ORIGINAL F.L. DOBERMANN and not equal MOLOSOID TRAITS not equal DCM not equal IDIOT CHARACTER not equal CANCER not equal MOLOSOID HD not equal MOLOSOID DNA not equal SKELETON PROBLEMS

AND DON'T MAKE PIPI WHEN SEE A PUSSICAT. IN GENERAL THEY KILL THE PUSSICAT.
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False mon cher.
DOBERMANN = ORIGINAL F.L. DOBERMANN MOLOSOID TRAITS DCM IDIOT CHARACTER CANCER MOLOSOID HDMOLOSOID DNASKELETON PROBLEMS

AND DON'T MAKE PIPI WHEN WEE A PUSSICAT. IN GENERAL THEY KILL THE PUSSICAT.
LOL

P.S.mai schimba si tu proxy-ul Hurricane specialistule, ca porma iar tipi ca ma-ta e-ste poarca :-)
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Valencia dictionary

Dobermanns = dogs of Valencia
The rest = "surrogate"
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Valencia say: "Irongate Weinberge Avatar . Still alive . Is almost a impossible thing but I try a legal infusion with pedigree type A , ussing OLD ORIGINAL NONMOLOSOIDAL GENES and NOT another Surrogate from other alien race."

Reader say:"i cannot find his pedigree? where can i see?"

Valencia say: "You can not find her motherline because is not published."

Conclusion: believe and do not question.
Valencia is the Man
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LOL
Now you understood why in last few years always I damn any molosoidal trait ?Why I damn that IMPOTENT at proper and at figurative dogs , ill by cancer, by molosoidal HD , by DCM, porcine or round great-dane eyes , chinese pitbull expresion , great dane heads, open great dane paw (fingers) .
Because they represent the SURROGATE of dobermann breed and they was introduced, breeded and promoted byBig Breeders at HIGH LEVEL and destroyed the true dobermann breed and maded a GENOCIDE !

-----------------
"Referring to anatomical traits, I do not understand why oversized, overweighed and short legged dogs with a mastiff tendency and exaggerated sloping top-line are promoted in conformation shows as winners. What is the reference? "
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Now I will explain how work the GENOCIDE, ussing a Forum quotation :

"Each one can be comforted as he wants, but the actual average life span in our breed is embarrassing. Health and life expectancy has never been a selection criteria applied in the mating, except in few cases, but the anatomical features and success at conformation shows. Until we change this mindset, there is nothing to do, even if a reliable DNA or biomarker test became available.

Referring to anatomical traits, I do not understand why oversized, overweighed and short legged dogs with a mastiff tendency and exaggerated sloping top-line are promoted in conformation shows as winners. What is the reference? Standard or politics? "

EXCELLENT POST
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Is inutile to expect salvation from where will NEVER come. Change the mind of race breeders. The changement must come from inside.

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2011-09-20 19:46:06 ::: IP:79.159.191.0 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Spain


A IDC committee of health and genetic as you describe must be at least scientific and independent, never political. In any case it seems absurd that anyone who has been part of the problem wants to lead the solution. It sounds like someone wants to change something so that nothing changes.
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Now I will explain how work the GENOCIDE, ussing a Forum quotation :

"Each one can be comforted as he wants, but the actual average life span in our breed is embarrassing. Health and life expectancy has never been a selection criteria applied in the mating, except in few cases, but the anatomical features and success at conformation shows. Until we change this mindset, there is nothing to do, even if a reliable DNA or biomarker test became available.

Referring to anatomical traits, I do not understand why oversized, overweighed and short legged dogs with a mastiff tendency and exaggerated sloping top-line are promoted in conformation shows as winners. What is the reference? Standard or politics? "
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A IDC committee of health and genetic as you describe must be at least scientific and independent, never political. In any case it seems absurd that anyone who has been part of the problem wants to lead the solution. It sounds like someone wants to change something so that nothing changes.
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Do you know what mean GENOCIDE ?
Genocide mean GENETICAL EXTERMINATION and is CONTRAR of FCI breeding rules and strategy .
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After more than 20 years without any rule regard race health , after we losted ALL lingevive bloodlines in GENOCIDE , you talk now about rules ?
LOL.
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I did not get the idea that the IDC commission on the genetic health of the Dobermann was intended to discover anything new. I think that the intention is to perform a thoughtful review of the research that has been done and is ongoing, and make recommendations or set rules for the genetic or health testing of breeding Dobermanns.
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When they KNOW then next IDC titles only for dogs which are complete
tested - holter and ultrascound - every year - other

HD, PHTVL, VWD and dilute

I think they only speak and nothing do.
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Let's hope it really is all about acknowledging the problem so things will not end up again like in the quite recent LMU study of the dogs used for the 1st time in breeding where the official outcome was that there is no problem.
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Somewhat related to the doberman genome it's been agreed in the IDC meeting last month that a committee will be formed in order to investigate the European doberman population (lineages, COI etc.) in order lessen the risk of dcm in the future. This committee consists of Mr. Wiblishauser (chairman), Mr. Pezzano and Mr. Beunekens. An expert of genealogy will also be dedicated to this task. The action plan or time schedule is perhaps still unknown.

I'm sure we can discount this committee if on;y from a time point of view. Still at least the IDC is acknowledging the DCM problem
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2011-09-19 17:04:07 ::: IP:204.45.133.74 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from United States

As I've heard Mr.Pezzano is the chairman and Mr. Wess is one of the members. Mr Wess who's work related that only 2-3% of the dobermanns are affected by DCM....

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ummm - don't know where you got the information in regard to Dr. Wess - as his research clearly give evidence of, that at least 58,2% of the population is affected by DCM ...
If a person from "ourside" is participating, and that person is a genealogist, I do not think Dr. Wess would be the person in question - not really his field.

Bitten
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correcture: trap = trot
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In Romania exist EVIDANCES that MANY dobermanns died under 3 years . Today ,another person story to me that he found his young dobermann died .
Yesterday anouther person story to me why he sold his young showlines male.
Because his dobermann make PIPI on him if he meet a pussicat .
Because this dobermann NEVER was capable to run in trap 10 m.
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2011-09-19 07:08:13 ::: IP:79.134.103.23 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Finland
Somewhat related to the doberman genome it's been agreed in the IDC meeting last month that a committee will be formed in order to investigate the European doberman population (lineages, COI etc.) in order lessen the risk of dcm in the future. This committee consists of Mr. Wiblishauser (chairman), Mr. Pezzano and Mr. Beunekens. An expert of genealogy will also be dedicated to this task. The action plan or time schedule is perhaps still unknown.

As I've heard Mr.Pezzano is the chairman and Mr. Wess is one of the members. Mr Wess who's work related that only 2-3% of the dobermanns are affected by DCM....
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Let's hope these three gentlemen find something totally new regarding the breed instead of just spending time and re-inventing the wheel... Or perhaps they do not need to find out anything because the breed as it currently is is their own creation as breeders, as judges or (in the worst case?) as both.
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Let's hope these three gentlemen find something totally new regarding the breed instead of just spending time and re-inventing the wheel... Or perhaps they do not need to find out anything because the breed as it is is their own creation as breeders, as judges or (in the wors case?) as both.
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Put the wolfs to guard the lambs .
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2011-09-19 07:08:13 ::: IP:79.134.103.23 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Finland


Somewhat related to the doberman genome it's been agreed in the IDC meeting last month that a committee will be formed in order to investigate the European doberman population (lineages, COI etc.) in order lessen the risk of dcm in the future. This committee consists of Mr. Wiblishauser (chairman), Mr. Pezzano and Mr. Beunekens. An expert of genealogy will also be dedicated to this task. The action plan or time schedule is perhaps still unknown.

---

Great ... but as information, similar research has been done on behalf of FCI - read the publications by Leroy et al (2008, 2009, 2010)

Bitten
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Somewhat related to the doberman genome it's been agreed in the IDC meeting last month that a committee will be formed in order to investigate the European doberman population (lineages, COI etc.) in order lessen the risk of dcm in the future. This committee consists of Mr. Wiblishauser (chairman), Mr. Pezzano and Mr. Beunekens. An expert of genealogy will also be dedicated to this task. The action plan or time schedule is perhaps still unknown.
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and Yes, only them remained after genocide .
pathetical NO ?
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Porma zici ca iar tenjur de mata.
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Valencia dobermanns, "fully by fleas" plays russian roulette???
Waaaaw!!!
Great thing!!!
Valencia is the Man!
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Mixter....

Valencia is any man but we will see WHO will be stuffed first , that pupies fully by fleas of that dobermanns fully by titles...
I repeat, Valencia dobermanns nothing will save, but will survive to roulette .
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2011-09-17 13:18:10 ... IP:89.136.57.192 ... from Romania

some time God hide well the good things

----
Waw!!!
God shows Valencia his good stuff ???
Revelation
Valencia is the Man!!!
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A interesting story ..

Valencia got the COR pedigrees of these pupies borned from a old female (in co-ownership) before to arrived the FCI acception for his new kennel. Because the FCI accept arrived, the papers for that pupies comed under his kennel name .
His kennel name must be Sufix, but all the pedigrees keep the kennel name like Prefix.

Then..the papers was returned to COR. The initial decision was to don't offer his kennel name to them , because he know that he will be criticised by..friends.
One day before to send to COR the pedigrees back , he saw the unique black male on his doctor, for cut the ears and recut the incorrect cuted tail.

He is so not a succesful show dog but so familiar...and similar with old so much losted dobermanns ....

Second day, the papers was returned to COR for corecture but keeping to them their blood right to be Weinberge Avatars.
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Valencia offer to that pupies his new kennel name because he love them.
but who know....?
some time God hide well the good things and the key is the love...
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Oh ya !
Still is for sale a pupy female , with a 15 years go tipicity , fully by fleas , borned from 9 years female. She have double genetic power in 10 generation than others in 13. She will save the world.
Do you want to buy her?
LOL
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@ 2011-09-17 09:15:45 ::: IP:86.23.12.115 from Great Britain (UK)

what do you sugest ?

test the stud dogs by ECG/holter and only use older males who are tested annually, widen the gene pool in europe by using american blood or blood from elswewhere in the world.
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No "american blood or blood from elswewhere in the world". Valencia's dogs are good. He kept good genes! Valencia is the Man!
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I am couriouse to see others Obi One GV products with different females
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Today I saw something verry interesting to Bucharest show....
Verry interesting...

Two young sisters females with old structure ...from Obi One GV and a Rellaps Urbano daughter .
Not strong, elegant , somewhat a incorrect paralelism , but old tipicity , without any molosoidal traits .
The females was not fantastic , but their molosoidal missing traits , make them fantastic.
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if you talk about Valencia, he have only 1 chance, actual litter from Urbano , few of them are good , and keept some good characters . Coco have power to resist other 2 generations to best molosoids .
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What others ? few pupies borned in a little town , fully by fleas, already arrived to noname owners , from a 9 years old female with 30 years ago tipicity ?
LOL
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What good genes keept Valencia ?
One really good female which support 2-3 males generations from actual show- lines ?
Valencia dogs will be lucky if old line will resist one more time and if he will find the equilibrum on Diamante Dobetrmanns ..
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No "american blood or blood from elswewhere in the world". Valencia's dogs are good. He kept good genes! Valencia is the Man!

LOL, best of luck then !!
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@ 2011-09-17 09:15:45 ::: IP:86.23.12.115 from Great Britain (UK)

what do you sugest ?

test the stud dogs by ECG/holter and only use older males who are tested annually, widen the gene pool in europe by using american blood or blood from elswewhere in the world.
------

No "american blood or blood from elswewhere in the world". Valencia's dogs are good. He kept good genes! Valencia is the Man!
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Nothin good will happen till you can see matings like most of those advertized on this site, inbreeding on dogs which died by DCM at young age or from mixing of 2 lines which both carry this disease. Sometimes I am thinking that most breeders do not care, maybe they like that their dog dies at 8 years when is unuseful anymore for them and let an empty place in the kennel for a new dog and they do not have to keep and feed an old dog. That's the said truth.
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Who will change the things ?
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2011-09-17 03:36:48 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania

Then..I believe in russian roulette , who will pass her will remain .
The good new is that will pass only who have original very strong inside . All surrogates will die under 8.

--

Sorry - don't agree on this - as the dogs that will survive, will also be the dogs, that will continue to transfer the problems - I do not see this as a solution.

Bitten
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what do you sugest ?

test the stud dogs by ECG/holter and only use older males who are tested annually, widen the gene pool in europe by using american blood or blood from elswewhere in the world.
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what do you sugest ?
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2011-09-16 21:18:27 ::: IP:86.23.12.115 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)

Germany & Italy

Breeders must realise the risks yet they still do the mating and proliferate the problem. The parallel is the judging system, everyone complains yet they still enter the shows year after year
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don't believe in rezasamblance of original doberman. Is too late for this. we bla bla here but NOBODY from numerouse readers from DR are ready to sollow a new way . More that , to go where, who and how ?
The genome is changed , breeders are changed , all is changed.

Then..I believe in russian roulette , who will pass her will remain .
The good new is that will pass only who have original very strong inside . All surrogates will die under 8.
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and from where will be the parents of you pupy Germany ? From moon ? LOL
Or baybe you will use a frozen sperm and frozen ovule into a surrogate mother :-)

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2011-09-16 21:04:43 ::: IP:80.187.106.55 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Germany


@ italy

you are right. We need to discuss where the
dobermann will be in the next years. I only
know that i will find my next dobermann like
my actual female without all the actual lines
not on dobermannreview releated breedings.
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the question is where you can find more Furstenfeld.

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2011-09-16 19:47:07 ::: IP:94.197.127.231 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


however , if there was still a choice between furstenfeld and american style ...i would choose furstenfeld anyday ....mainly because of the style ...the maghoney tan ..style of head ..coal like eyes
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Germany & Italy

Discussion of dogs gone by isnt wasted. Personally I cannot see any safe lines in Euope, even the working lines. Everday puppies are advertised here and elsewhere that look quite promising until you see the same old bloodlines in the background which generate health problems. Breeders must realise the risks yet they still do the mating and proliferate the problem. The parallel is the judging system, everyone complains yet they still enter the shows year after year. Why, is everyone like sheep that follow the leader ?
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@ italy

you are right. We need to discuss where the
dobermann will be in the next years. I only
know that i will find my next dobermann like
my actual female without all the actual lines
not on dobermannreview releated breedings.
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however , if there was still a choice between furstenfeld and american style ...i would choose furstenfeld anyday ....mainly because of the style ...the maghoney tan ..style of head ..coal like eyes

but some American dogs are the closest resemblance to Furstenfeld in type
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this discussion that talks about dogs in the past, is very interesting, but I think we should talk about the present and especially future.
What bloodlines are really useful for the future for Dobermann breed?

This is important to discuss!!
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Tyson di Campovalano is death!!!
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love the black and white pics of tyson by giota
c
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tyson di campo ...some lovely pics of him by gribbon in greek....one of my fav males ..lovely maghoney tan ...he could bite hard aswell

. had lovely bitch from him...anyone heard about Mr Prosperi
c
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A few dogs have lost breast tan under 4.
Gino Gomez transmit this problem to
many of his descedants.

http://www.kansadobe.com/images/GinoGomez/GinoWorld.jpg
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however , if there was still a choice between furstenfeld and american style ...i would choose furstenfeld anyday ....mainly because of the style ...the maghoney tan ..style of head ..coal like eyes
c
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i think urbano is possibly one of the most important studs today ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FR9hZCC46I


i think that is him in video with rio bianco owner in the middle correct me if wrong ...the european dobermann still has class and all can not be ruled out ...but have to becareful .....the use of american dogs is also option ...they do have some good dogs there just have to study well ....choose desirable traits ....personally though i think good head shape is important and like palmer i like maghoney tan ...i dont like too much tan ...and too big tan markings on chest ....even worse if too light .. i like very dark eyes
c
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I saw Solnze, is a beautiful female .
The inbreeding on Urbano is smart .


You must to understood one thing, any of us is NOT a virgin lady, we are in situation when only the winners of Russian Roulette will write the future of dobermann breed.
This litter is intersting and in my opinion have future .
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2011-09-16 17:50:01 ::: IP:2.195.17.203 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from United States


Hallo

This mating is actually a real game of Russian roulette, or one bet on the future of the breed Doberman?

P - LITTER

Were mated on August,28 2011

We expect pups in the beginning of November,20111

Sire: CH Urbano del Diamante Nero x Dam: CH Sant Kreal Solnze
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I reffered to Wiblishauser.
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Interesting statement and somewhat true .
The problem is that DV and IDC presedency and Judges Coledge is maded by same person by long long time .
Then...if you like more judges, only one chance ...to participate to the shows maded by FCI judges .


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2011-09-16 17:07:20 ::: IP:86.23.12.115 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


Overall - regardless what one might try to do, it all comes down to political decissions

The political decisions are such because there appears to be very few judges at top level. Introduce more new judges and the political situation may change. Or if this cannot be achieved simply do not enter the shows. You say the judges and the system is goverened by politics but in truth the situation is goverened by the show competitors.
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2011-09-16 17:07:20 ::: IP:86.23.12.115 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


Overall - regardless what one might try to do, it all comes down to political decissions

The political decisions are such because there appears to be very few judges at top level. Introduce more new judges and the political situation may change. Or if this cannot be achieved simply do not enter the shows. You say the judges and the system is goverened by politics but in truth the situation is goverened by the show competitors

---

Whether it's the one or the other - it doesn't matter, as it will still be Don Quiote against the windmills ...

Bitten
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Hallo

This mating is actually a real game of Russian roulette, or one bet on the future of the breed Doberman?

P - LITTER

Were mated on August,28 2011

We expect pups in the beginning of November,20111

Sire: CH Urbano del Diamante Nero x Dam: CH Sant Kreal Solnze
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Lol - ok the temperament.
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2011-09-16 16:50:49 ::: IP:62.1.122.196 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece


They are normotype dobermanns - not heavy but strong and with excellent chest and angles. Some have interesting heads. The browns have very dark eyes. The character is a little hot.

--

You might VERY well be correct :) The character is not hot, it's the temerament that is so - the character is excellent - Yes, they are strong and not due to bodily weight ... Their heads are wedged, and dogs of the colour brown, the eyes colour is that of dark amber.

Bitten
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Overall - regardless what one might try to do, it all comes down to political decissions

The political decisions are such because there appears to be very few judges at top level. Introduce more new judges and the political situation may change. Or if this cannot be achieved simply do not enter the shows. You say the judges and the system is goverened by politics but in truth the situation is goverened by the show competitors.
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They are normotype dobermanns - not heavy but strong and with excellent chest and angles. Some have interesting heads. The browns have very dark eyes. The character is a little hot.
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2011-09-16 13:53:06 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania


There is as a recent outcross into American .

--

True - look at how the combination has been made - when you have done that, then ask youself, will this erase/change the genome or merely change the phonotypic "look"

Bitten
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Alin ...

->
It is true that actual politic don't help soo much to find , select and promote the ORIGINAL , but I think that NOT all the breders are idiots .
...

These dogs most likely needs a show evaluation to obtain breeding rights, and regardless how healthy they might be, or how correct their genome might be - BUT they will not stand a chance in the show ring under the present political interpretation of the standard.
These dogs might even be fairly overall correct according to the official standard, but will be faulted due to that they in appearance are not in accordance to the majority of dogs represented at a show.
Overall - regardless what one might try to do, it all comes down to political decissions ...

Bitten
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Alin ...

->
It is true that actual politic don't help soo much to find , select and promote the ORIGINAL , but I think that NOT all the breders are idiots .
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testing ..
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Alin ...

->
It is true that actual politic don't help soo much to find , select and promote the ORIGINAL , but I think that NOT all the breders are idiots .
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alin study the video of the head upclose of dictator in the video ....beautiful dobermann head
c
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2011-09-16 13:38:25 ::: IP:86.23.12.115 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


Why do I mention the above - well, I feel the above information gives evidence of, that if an infusion should have taken place around 1960 or before, and even in the 1970's - then the American bred Dobermann also would have had the possible infusion, which have changed the genemo of the Dobermann in Europe, but as Paker 2004 confirms, this is not the case ...

Bitten
From what the USA (show) breeders tell me is that in the main the show stock is comprised largely of American bred dogs descended from the original imports. Breeders would often say breed anything to anything in American and it will always look the same. Could it be that the dogs sent to America more recently were exclusively for working kennels not the show kennels. In asking this question has any testing been made into the two groups - show dogs and working dogs ?

I remember Wilkings judging in the UK it took him 12 hours and If memory serves me well he used a chair instead to standing.

---

No - no additional research have been done yet. Our paper has been presented - answer is awaited.

Knowing hos stronly most American breedings are, your statement seems to be correct. Having tried to follow which dogs from Europe occur in America, how they have been bred - I feel that there in recent years have been imported equal amount of dogs from work / show, hence why I refereed to American bred dogs as an option.

Bitten
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haha gb what a show ,,,12 hours long ....can you by any chance remember which dog won it?
i should imagine there was alot of dogs from the original tavey then ...not sure when they changed ownership of the affix ....some wonderful early imports from germany infact europes best ...did go to the usa ....dictator wonderful dog ...look at the movement and head alin ...and alertness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2OKLWC-Dyc
camelot
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There is as a recent outcross into American .
Regarding a general refresh using Americans, I think it is not a option , maybe Americans have different Genome but they have HUGE health problems, too.

It is true that actual politic don't help soo much to find , select and promote the ORIGINAL , but I think that NOT all the breders are idiots .
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Alin ...

"almost destroy our breed"

should perhaps be:

"destroyed our breed"

As dogs which still might have trace of the original genome, will not only be difficult to find, but if found, they would not obtain value due to the present political interpretation of the standard.

Other option would be, breed to American bred lines, where there are no recent outcross to European lines -

Bitten
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The question remain : who changed the dobermann race so much ?

In paralel with posibilitis of fraude and pedigree changement ,
we need to calculate the infiltrations via another bloodlines .... but sufficiente presente in entire race .
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Why do I mention the above - well, I feel the above information gives evidence of, that if an infusion should have taken place around 1960 or before, and even in the 1970's - then the American bred Dobermann also would have had the possible infusion, which have changed the genemo of the Dobermann in Europe, but as Paker 2004 confirms, this is not the case ...

Bitten
From what the USA (show) breeders tell me is that in the main the show stock is comprised largely of American bred dogs descended from the original imports. Breeders would often say breed anything to anything in American and it will always look the same. Could it be that the dogs sent to America more recently were exclusively for working kennels not the show kennels. In asking this question has any testing been made into the two groups - show dogs and working dogs ?

I remember Wilkings judging in the UK it took him 12 hours and If memory serves me well he used a chair instead to standing.
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666- The revelation
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From all that stories result that the problem appear after 1970 .
That mean that Forell dobermanns has right genetic baggage .
That mean that both our great breeders, Forell and Furstenfeld are in battle with the SURROGATE which almost destroy our breed.
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I am not aware of, how many of you actually know this, still I thought I would mention it.
In the years after 2nd WW a cooperation between Europe and America was founded. It was called "IDC" - and the members were:
France, Holland, Austria, England, Norway, America and Germany
Records from these meetings, have been written in "Unser Dobermann" - and it's clear to see from the records, that the cooperation between the previous mentioned countries were active and strong. Even the standard set forward was equal in the mentioned countries. The earliest issue I have of the magazine "Unser Dobermann" is from 1956 - the records tells, that they had a mutural goal. It's also clear to me, that the exchange of dogs between the countries, occured frequiently = thatthe phenotype of the breed of that time was next to equal = that the genome of that time, was equal.
In 1965, England was the host of IDC intionational show - judge was Ernst Wilkings ..
They stopped produsing Unser Dobermann late 1960's - but information and records were afterwards published in "Unser Hundewelt" and "Unser Rassenhund" - which continued up to around the beginning of 1980's.
Unfortunately I have not found the year, when the "old" IDC cooperation stopped - but I'll keep looking ....

Why do I mention the above - well, I feel the above information gives evidence of, that if an infusion should have taken place around 1960 or before, and even in the 1970's - then the American bred Dobermann also would have had the possible infusion, which have changed the genemo of the Dobermann in Europe, but as Paker 2004 confirms, this is not the case ...

Bitten
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yes Alin that is quite possible ...even though some heads were strong ....they were still more , or less correct in shape ...
the correct shape is an important point
in forrell ...he did breed some nice looking dogs
c
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Then remained only one option : FALSE PEDIGREE which went to Forell !

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2011-09-16 13:01:34 ::: IP:94.197.127.199 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


ah ok ..Bitten yes it makes sense ...Yes Alin ...even though strong features in some forrell ...they were natural within the breed i believe that
c
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ah ok ..Bitten yes it makes sense ...Yes Alin ...even though strong features in some forrell ...they were natural within the breed i believe that
c
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some of my message to Mark was lost ... sorry about that ...

-> Sonia has already addressed this, see her previous entry - aside from that, why do you think this trait is still seen in the breed of today - because it hasn't been totally erased.

Bitten
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Mark ... you wrote:

->
how they got rid of a boxer of bulldog head type so quick i'm not sure
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Then you said that in years of Forell/Furstenfeld breeding the dobemann genome was in concordance with THE ORIGINAL desendance ?
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Also ... stop speculating in what might have happen in the 1960's as a previous paper in regard to the Dobermann's Genome - prior to that by Leroy 2009 and Parker 2004 - gives evidence of, that the Genome of the Dobermann at that time, was in accordance to historical data.

See our paper - it's been mentioned ...

Bitten
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then ...there is a huge fraud in dobermann breed and the pedigrees analyse went to false traces.
But I swear , in dobermann breed is strong infiltrate a powerfull Surrogate ! I saw him by long time.
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Alin ...

According to the paper by Leroy 2008 - the investigation into the French population, gave evidence of, that approx 20% of all parents to the reged offspring had incorrect pedigrees - see our article ... Would it then be unlikely to speculate, that similar practise might have taken place in other countries too ?

Bitten
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Yes, it is possible and this , the natural turnback to first and natural mastiffs from breed .

I repeat, I don't calculate before the probability of fraude and I accept taht I follow a false trace .
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2011-09-16 12:21:25 ::: IP:94.197.127.75 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)
....but i think different that it was not an infusion but throwback to the natural mastiff in the breed ...
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what i also do know is that the rams head and obviously short head is a feature of the bulldog
c
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sure..selection is impotrtant ..but first of all must to have what to select . Then..because mutations is excluded , first elemet of changing is THE GENE . And the actual pedigree don't offer any correct explanation .
Then , for the first time I calculate the posibilities of FRAUDE .
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hi val ...yes i think also ..like you that it happened before forrell ....but i think different that it was not an infusion but throwback to the natural mastiff in the breed ...as for the recent finding of the genone of a boxer type or bulldog ...that i think is quite possible and obviously dna evidence is strong to deny ,,,how they got rid of a boxer of bulldog head type so quick i'm not sure ,,,,,but what i think could have happened is the natural mastiff type in the breed which already has power ....is the one where the possible infusion has been made
c
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when I talk about dobermann changing I reffer to very grave elements , phisical , characterial and health .
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Comparative with Furstenfeld, the molosoidal presance via Forell is more evident and in my opinion comed from before.
But that presance can NOT explain the accelerate changing of dobermann breed which happened starting with ' 80 years .

The pedigree analyse is insufficiente and we must to calculate a FRAUDE !
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Correct statement.

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2011-09-16 11:57:57 ::: IP:62.44.134.5 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Denmark

In regard to Chico being the most influencesive dog of the past behind modern show breedings - might be correct, but still doesn't give evidence of the change of the genome of the Dobermann of today.
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no you are correct Bitten it is interesting and yes i think something is maybe going on ..not arquing at you or sonia ..but i think interesting to ask questions to try get to the truth more closely ...even if a waste of time ..i;m sure lots are interested aswell about whats happened
c
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yes jago is the son of chico ..yes bronco is linebred to vello that does not mean he has to look like vello .just because he more closely bred to him ......his body is more chico ...jago than vello
c
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Sorry for that Mark - perhaps you could please write your sentences more continiusly, as for non english persons, they are not that easy to connect ...

In regard to Chico being the most influencesive dog of the past behind modern show breedings - might be correct, but still doesn't give evidence of the change of the genome of the Dobermann of today.

BItten
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..and also short or no - tail pups... to the same parents.
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The short legs are in the breed through Urian v Grammont born in 1915. It is possibly a recessive trait.
I had seen some very short legged pups born to long legged parents quite often.
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bitten
i never said bronco had the largest influence through chico ...i said why did chico produce dogs with substance like bronco .......and yes there are dogs low to the ground through chico ,,,and yes chico is the most distant inbred dog on modern show dog breeding in europe
c
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I think the Ebo explanation can be find in past, more before Forell and Furstenfeld dogs .

About powerfull Rusians Pim's , GV , Slavnoi, Livonija ...have 1 common element.Ugor.
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....Rusian style
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Mark ...

I fail to understand you - sorry ... You said that Chico Forell had the largest influence in the breeding of Bronco v Zenn - are you sure this is correct ?
Bronco v Zenn: Sire Jago Beelen / Dam: Elke Pfalzer Waldheim
Jago's Dam: Dascha Forell => Vello Furstenfeld
Elke's Sire: Vello Furstenfeld

I also do not understand, why you believe that selection must be ruled out first ... as selection is primary done after a possible infusion has been made, and through selective breeding for generations.

In regard to short legs ... in the show descriptions of Bronco it's stated, that he APPEARED to have short legs - this is not = to having had short legs ...

The published paper by Leroy 2009, gives evidence of the change of the genome within the European Dobermann - persoanlly I find it hard to continue argueing against this finding - as DNA will always tell the thruth ...

Bitten
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Dear Camelot

It is true that Forells dogs are not identical with Furstenfeld , their mathernal lines are different .
Even some of them haved short legs and have not so good helth .
Even I think is is true that can exist a dobermann molosoidal infusion long time ago ...

ALL that are INSUFFICIENT to explain the fast race transformation happened around 80 years , character changing , deep stops, round eyes , skin , improper character , imense chest and forechest ....
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i think this convex of the nose is interesting at that time ...was it because of the changing of the muzzle
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i agree not all forrell ...are mollosid....dont forget he has vello in there aswell ......but some forrell did have strong heads ,,,as said i have seen dogs strongly bred to wilm v forrell and grief v hagenstern and the heads were strong and bodies ....i have seen a close up of wilm v forrell head in about the dobermann by jan ivren and without doubt its strong ...and eye witnesses have said he stamped big dogs

need to answer why did chico produce,,.dogs with substance and short legs .....is short legs part of the breed or not ..if not then was an infusion made before the 1970s ...

as said i;m not ruling out an infusion and is quite possible ...but must rule out selection first i think ......and as said pictures of germania and furtenfeld is not correct way to do that ...put a picture of bronco v zenn because chico is the more domanint in pedigress not furstenfeld...remember also a famous breeder said a bad head can take 10 generations to get rid of
c
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That is true.
Something is strange ...even all roads went to Forell dogs ..they are different ...

To be Forell dogs in battle with a molosoidal animal introduced in race in FRAUDULOSE mode ?
hmmm

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2011-09-16 08:30:46 ::: IP:83.45.223.167 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Spain

“Germania and Forell dogs didn't have head types which can result from foreign infusion - they are longish, narrow, less stop, some Roman nosed, they look weak compared to today standard show dog heads”. In fact this head construction has traits of Greyhound heritage.
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Hmmm.
I don't calculate the FRAUD and changeing pedigree posibilities ....
I searched back....and all roads went to Forell...but Forell dogs are not so molosoid to complet explain the fast transformation which happened with true around 80 years ....
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Yes....is possible to exist a FRAUD in a big kennel which maded those important ancestors.
If they prepared in "backyard" of the kennel the molosoidal infusion and after that they changed the pedigree ....then...is possibly that Forell and Furstenfeld to be both inocent breeders .....

Anyway..if this FRAUD to introduce a SURROGATE in our breed happened , this powerfull "alien" element almost destroy original dobermann race health and character .
I sense this "alien " by long time..is a hidose animal present in our dobermanns .


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2011-09-16 08:30:46 ::: IP:83.45.223.167 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Spain

I have no proof, but my sixth sense and knowledge of human nature tells me that the real situation is a mixture of input of “alien dogs” and selection on related anatomical traits. If the introduction of frauds occurred, when did it happen?
............
In this period you can speculate about most influent kennels, dogs, kinship between most influent dogs, and changes in the anatomical or behaviour phenotypes of dogs respect its “hypothetical” sires, dams and ancestors. Maybe that can give any trace on this hypothesis. Theoretically by statistical projection of scientific data, almost 20-25% (5 dogs) of these sires have false pedigrees.
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Thank you Sonia !
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Sorry bronco son of jago whose father was chico
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So of course you inbreed enough To Chico u will get dogs with short legs appearing and plenty of substance and through selection even more emphases.......selection on known traits can not be ruled out ...even if foreign infusions have been made ..otherwise unless all considerations are taken it's flawed
C
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Another male of substance from 1975 bronco v zenn ...powerful built male from Chico v forrell
again short in the leg ...the short leg was in the breed then not just in latter years
C
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I saw many dogs that were very closely line bred to hagenstern and Wilm v forrell and they had very strong heads
C
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Where did the heavy coat come from in Odin and dogs from Chico and short legs....they sometimes threw much different than dogs that came from furstenfeld and germania type .....having owned furstenfeld dog yes greyhound gives benefits ...
C
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[This is a question for Sonia I think...

My personal opinion ( which may be wrong of course), is that both happened: selection of a certain type first, introduction to accelerate things somewhat latter, when this type became popular... Some time after WWII, a trend for more powerful dogs begun in Europe. With selection, some powerful dogs appeared - the so called "working type", not to be confused with the working line dogs of today. Compact, deep, strong boned. The introduction may had happened in 70s, not in the principal kennels ( Germania and Forel dogs didnt have headtypes which can result from foreign infusion - they are longish, narrow, less stop, some Roman nosed, they look weak compared to today standard show dog heads ) and eventually resulted to a number of popular sires some generations and time latter - at the 90s maybe.
From my experience with people who breed, ambitious young breeders think that is easy to make a certain style of dog using another breed - may someone did it then.]

Hi Greece:

I have no proof, but my sixth sense and knowledge of human nature tells me that the real situation is a mixture of input of “alien dogs” and selection on related anatomical traits. If the introduction of frauds occurred, when did it happen? There is no simple answer this question because the observed uniformity in the genome of recent dogs depends on several factors: time when the input occurred, number of dogs and breeders involved in this operation, intensity of use by breeders of dogs and lines involved, the number of cycles of backcrossing to the present time, selected anatomical features in this way and resulting linkage between foreign and old genes, inbreeding rate applied in subsequent matings, etc.

If there was this strange introduction, the full genomic homogenization surely there has been verified through one or some of the most influential popular dogs in the history of the breed. In the list below are some of the most popular sires in the period 1970-1995.

Popular sires total pups sired Born
Jurgen v. Hagenstern 733 1971
Guy's Hilo v. Norden Stamm 503 1972
Ero v. Franckenhorst 355 1973
Don Dayan v. Franckenhorst 576 1973
Bingo v. Ellendonk 456 1975
Ali v. Langenhorst 377 1977
Hertog Alpha v. Le Dobry 420 1979
Amos v. Franckenhorst 161 1982
Arrow v. Harro's Berg 308 1983
Quinn dei Nobili Nati 98 1984
Gringo v. Franckenhorst 123 1985
Fela v. Franckenhorst 136 1985
Graf Guido v. Franckenhorst 463 1985
Hargos v.h. Wantij 501 1986
Eick v.d. Rappenau 200 1987
G. Quinto v. Neerlands Stam 99 1987
G. Quirinus v. Neerlands Stam 781 1987
Prinz v. Norden Stamm 115 1988
Gamon di Campovalano 390 1990
Randy v.'t Sabbatsveld 218 1993
Alfa Adelante del Citone 302 1994
Astor del Citone 152 1994
Baron Nike Renewal 323 1995

In this period you can speculate about most influent kennels, dogs, kinship between most influent dogs, and changes in the anatomical or behaviour phenotypes of dogs respect its “hypothetical” sires, dams and ancestors. Maybe that can give any trace on this hypothesis. Theoretically by statistical projection of scientific data, almost 20-25% (5 dogs) of these sires have false pedigrees. Although this “finding Wally” game is useless now, at least can be fun for someone (not me).

Anyway I have proof (because I have studied and I have experimental data about it) that in the mid 80's there was a decline in the genetic health of European population with a significant decrease in average fitness (significant lowering of average litter size) of the population which is not recovered so far.. I can say also that this phenomenon is not related to the rate of inbreeding in the population. This moment, which could be called “inbreeding depression”, coincides with an expansion of population size (popularization of the breed) and the exponential increase in the prevalence of DCM, and is preceded by a high rate of inbreeding (average COI = 12.38 +- 5.288 %), a strong overuse of popular dogs (almost 85% of the population is sired by dogs with more than 100 pups), a little fraction (about 20%) of overall population is breeding population, and a imbalance between males and females in the breeding population (3.68 female/male ratio).

Otherwise, the eighties were very “creative” years (and economically beneficial) in dog breeding. I have notice in this period about the introduction of improver's breeds in other old breeds but not in Dobermann.

You are right: “Germania and Forell dogs didn't have head types which can result from foreign infusion - they are longish, narrow, less stop, some Roman nosed, they look weak compared to today standard show dog heads”. In fact this head construction has traits of Greyhound heritage. Chest white mark, called by American breeders “the mark of Dictator” (but not linked to Dictator) is not linked to spotting gene “s”; it appears from time to time in American dogs and remembers the legacy of the Greyhound, but don't appear long in European Dobermanns.

I often hear derogatory comments about the Greyhound heritage of Dobermann, but Greyhound has had a beneficial influence on speed, chase instinct, trainability and low prevalence of hip dysplasia in the breed. Even Greyhounds have relatively long lives for a large breed, the average life span being 12-15 years old.

Sonia
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..and a secret old element :-)
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For that I will use Diamante Furstenfeld power .
LOL
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They are strong and dangerouse , but I will get their power I will broken surrogate genetic in pieces and I will release D'aciaio's . D'aciaio still are presents in battle with surrogates , I know to recognise them .
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Ebo : 7 HELLA V. FORELL ,DASCHA V. FORELL ,2 BRYAN V. FORELL , 3xODIN V FORELL ,3 x CHICO V. FORELL , 2ALVA V FRANCKENHORST, 3 ANDY V. EICHENHAIN .

This animal infect D'acciaio.
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hi gb ..i agree about ebo and yes his progeny were very powerful built ,,and this has to be considered especially as the breeding to him maybe several times in the pedigree ..not just once or twice but many times
c
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but i do not think its correct to show comparisons with furstenfeld and germania dogs which were similar breeders of a more elegant style ...with the modern dog to try to show differences ...but i can see differences in some shapes of build in some dogs ,,,as said there has been for along time dogs with good size ,,,including dogs with ali v langenhorst such as anka ....mia v norden was a very powerful bitch and when i saw kalina.....better to compare these dogs ....and they could work ......but as said some more modern dogs do show a slightly different shape about them

Ebo v d Groot Maat was also a powerful big male, no surprise his offspring would be also. The size in this case was I think by selection not foreign blood
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Gamon is certainly interesting in type & build. He was perhaps one of the first really well made dogs. I know a male line bred to Gamon who displays the same body type and has an overlay on the loin which is unusual for a Dobermann. Some of the eastern european dogs a while back carried the same overlay, had short muzzles and I understand one had a white chest but the latter remark is rumour and may not have foundation.

Certainly after Gamon came heavier dogs with broad skulls, short legs and heavy bone and size. The size for me was indicitive of foreign blood
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also can see strong dogs coming out of the 1960s ...rita v forrell rondo forell..dona v eichenhaim ....and if we read and look at the topline ,of odin ...first few lines of hans book odin v forrell ... odin was a short compact male ...very powerful and strong heavy bone ...

look at the topline and that is 1964 .....and if valencia is correct inbreeding 300x and same to his son chico 300x ....this type of inbreeding can not rule out mastiff type traits occuring ........as odin and chico are certainly not greyhound or manchester and tan terrier in type ........the breed is naturally i think already 2 different types ...the vello type ...and chico ...mastiff type .....and variations will occur to how there bred ...and some freak pups will naturally occur ~
however i think its possible infusions were made later on ..but must not forget the dobermann will still show its natural heritage to a mastiff through the butchers dog ...white hairs .,,,heavy coats ..shorter heads ...etc
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I think we have to know if Chico and Odin were or showed mastiff Features and if they did was it the normal part of the dobermann heritage also has a different mastiff breed been introduced at maybe slightly different times to the breed after or before this period
C
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exist one word : " all the roads went to Rome "
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and Quirinus the son of Hertog Alfa ..Grand son of DonDayan..and we will arive AGAIN on same Forells and Frankenhorst dogs , presents ALL AROUND in race .
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No...I don't think that Gamon was a mixture from mastifoids, but for sure is one principal element which carry "big genes".
Gamon is ony the son of Quirinus .
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2011-09-15 18:11:27 ::: IP:85.73.80.254 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece


I do not think labrador enter, is nonsense, but mastiff has been inserted and many and many times we all know them, and do not talk about those, that valencia is right but who listen. To the whole of Europe was talking secretly to gamon but now you know , job lines and separation and genes are stupidity, the thirst for more money by selling the bigger dogs did it
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I don't think that. That happened before .
Bjut is true that mastifoid traits become more evient and multiplied that lines starting with 1980 years .

The HD C and D are normal in some Mastifoids and DCM for sure come from same MASTIFOID family not from original dobermann .
The cancer proved a cells masive disfunctions .
The character, no smartness can prove some dogs descendance .
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2011-09-15 18:02:23 ::: IP:85.73.80.254 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece


mastiff infouzions at 1980 that is the reson off today
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i would guess about that type aswell greece ...but we dont know what we really are dealing with ..unless first seeing the pedigrees of the dogs tested ..and also we dont know if more than one mastiff infusion has been made or several ...and without more testing of different dogs within the breed
c
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I do not think labrador enter, is nonsense, but mastiff has been inserted and many and many times we all know them, and do not talk about those, that valencia is right but who listen. To the whole of Europe was talking secretly to gamon but now you know , job lines and separation and genes are stupidity, the thirst for more money by selling the bigger dogs did it
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as said before these powerful dogs were in the 1970s ..as you can see in hans zwan book and has previuosly mentioned about van rensloo dogs ..look at aleet van hermansjovak 1978 ...your see dogs known for powerful chests ..no real tuck up ..short in leg ..like baron cecar van rensloo....
also alot of dogs from ali ..had strong underjaws

..gin v forrell was also known to be a big massive dog from 1960..... also .jivago with overly strong head ...jura v wantij

.to really get a clearer picture need to know which dogs have been tested ,,,,do they have lots of inbreeding to known heavier dogs ...or selective breeding before conclusions can really be made ...
c
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mastiff infouzions at 1980 that is the reson off today
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but i do not think its correct to show comparisons with furstenfeld and germania dogs which were similar breeders of a more elegant style ...with the modern dog to try to show differences ...but i can see differences in some shapes of build in some dogs ,,,as said there has been for along time dogs with good size ,,,including dogs with ali v langenhorst such as anka ....mia v norden was a very powerful bitch and when i saw kalina.....better to compare these dogs ....and they could work ......but as said some more modern dogs do show a slightly different shape about them ...
c
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..forgot, except Pathos which have a relative equilibrate genetoc
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forrell did with the help of judges and breeders..and the general problic wanting a bigger ,....but i ask you where do you think this more modern shape on some dogs ...not size has come from?
c
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Camelot
are you kind to name two IDC siegers from last 5 years ? You are free to choice , to see their genetical structure .
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then I ask again: WHO MADE THE RACE BOOTLENECK ?
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Camelot
any Genetical analyse will show that the inbreeding today is on 16, Hertog Alfa , 40Don Dayan, 150 Olive Bamby Pride, 300 Odin Forell, 300 Chico Forell , many Gamon, 7 Quirinus ,16 Ebo, many Royal Bell, 6 Renewal 's

Al of them descend from same family .
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hi val

yes i agree and have lots of chico v forrel ...a strong type ..the reason bronco was strong which is what breeders didnt like ...as said wilm v forrell also had a strong head....try to find the pic of his head in jan ivrens book about the dobermann ...forrell had some big dogs...not small ....
but what is interesting is the shape not so much the power that as i said as always been there reqardless of what others say ,,,,but the shape of the build resembling that of the boxer and the results of some genone testing showing this
c
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Courage !
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I waiting to contradict that FORELL/Frankenhorst is not the DOMINANT genetical element from today .
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FALSE. Without the GENES selection is NOT sufficient.
There actionated BOTH ELEMENTS: FOREIGN SURROGATE PRESSANCE AND SELECTION !

2011-09-15 14:32:36 ::: IP:62.1.122.196 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece


...And we must not forget that selection only is possible to give similar results. Enough with gostbastting.
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That because their dominat genetic is the same : FORELL

2011-09-15 15:24:55 ::: IP:92.40.253.73 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


yes val ..all those dogs you mentioned have strong heads ,and body type ....quirinus ...also gave gamon his strong head type ...van wantij dogs also very strong ...in head and body ..and yes when inbred on these dogs obviously would make powerful dogs
c
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The unilateral selection of some traits (power, bones, chest, strong stop) FIX the bad surrogate genes (skin, round eyes, deeeeep stooopppp , idiot character , zero longevity) so much than now dobermann race have a big problem. Very big.



2011-09-15 14:29:54 ::: IP:62.1.122.196 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece


The clarification of the position of the working lines will point to the date of the intrusion more clearly. If the working dogs have the same amount of "foreign" genes, then we speak about an older event, or for a selection result.
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yes val ..all those dogs you mentioned have strong heads ,and body type ....quirinus ...also gave gamon his strong head type ...van wantij dogs also very strong ...in head and body ..and yes when inbred on these dogs obviously would make powerful dogs
c
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Grece , today Russian export Forell via Frankenhorst Frankenhorst , via Gamon, Ugor, Jivago , Quirinus , not old Russian lines. That old lines are losted and mixed .
It is stupid to accouse a female in 5-th pedigree generation by DCM and kiss in ass all the rest ill pedigree.
This is anouther genetical truth and I don;t menage Rusians to said that.

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2011-09-15 13:36:57 ::: IP:62.1.122.196 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece


Romania, I seek the "problem" in the principal country which "exports" studs in modern times in all europe- Italy. And in the rising force of the day- Russia.
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Camelot, to know and change the future you must to understood the past .
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2011-09-15 13:47:26 ::: IP:92.40.253.73 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)

fit the pieces in the jigsaw ...stop keep refering to the past
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some of the breeders in gb in the past ..for example really cared about rear angulations ... and not having cow hocks than there euro breeders much more than heads ....they selected more for this, and is still evident
c
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yes true ....all dogs throw good and bad ...some throw better things than others though...but without selection on a trait it can be lost
c
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graft quirnus ..e.g gave strong heads...underjaw ...but i doubt if there was any new infusions there....his mother certainly didnt have a strong head ..i met her ...
c
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...And accidentally keeps and some undesirables too...
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selection is what keeps the desirable trait yes
c
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...And we must not forget that selection only is possible to give similar results. Enough with gostbastting.
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hi greece
the stronger muzzle or under jaw would not have come from a boxer or bulldog ....
but the build it could have influenced yes
c
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The clarification of the position of the working lines will point to the date of the intrusion more clearly. If the working dogs have the same amount of "foreign" genes, then we speak about an older event, or for a selection result.
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yes greece if the study is correct ..they would be free of it ...also some european show dogs maybe .....but the breed is mixed so much now ...also there must be diffrent degrees of the infusion
c
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In reality and as we all know some Italian lines were far more suspicious for premature death than any other breeder worldwide. Apart from that we have also seen "molosoidal" characteristics in many Italian famous studs of the 90's (76+, molosoid stop, round eyes) and also are many rumors for some Italian MEGA BYBs that also used liver colored Labradors to "improve" the red and tan color. !!!!!!!
Please also keep in mind BYB is not only the "amature" with one or two litters per year, BYBs are also well known breeders with 50+ litters per year -yes those chasing the in fashion stud- without any "horama" in their breeding.

TY.

Robin
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I am not a geneticist, but one proposition is for geneticists to find if there are differences in the genome of european dogs with pure working pedigrees and the others. This may clarify some things.
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valencia fit the pieces in the jigsaw ...stop keep refering to the past .,its easier to solve
c
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2011-09-15 12:59:28 ::: IP:62.1.122.196 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece

Forgot - Intersting and in accordance to some of the dogs I personally have seen from 1983 in those countries ...

Bitten
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Romania, I seek the "problem" in the principal country which "exports" studs in modern times in all europe- Italy. And in the rising force of the day- Russia. I think I am in the center of things.
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2011-09-15 12:59:28 ::: IP:62.1.122.196 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece

You have made many entries, and many hints - I think I know where you are going, and whom you are talking about ... Interesting ...

Bitten
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I cannot understand why you always mix the longevity theme with the possibility of the outcross. An outcross usually increase fitness not the opposite.
As for "old" russian - many dont look like dobermanns sorry . I dond know with what they were mixed if they were, and if this was molossoid or not.
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2011-09-15 12:59:28 ::: IP:62.1.122.196 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece

Baskal - is this you ?

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Grece..for sure the Old Russian was longevive and NON MOLOSOIDAL. In my opinion they comed from the ORIGINAL dobermanns , arrived here in time and around of World War period.

If you search the molosoids and surrogates in old Russian...I really will died by laught.

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2011-09-15 12:55:56 ::: IP:62.1.122.196 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece


On the other hand, Russia was "uknown" - but their undocumended female lines are in allmost all european pedigrees today. Do anyone really knows what is there?
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Clearly I dont speak for little backyard breeders but of big breeders.
I dont know if you know some of the personal history of many of the most prominent breeders. Some were very poor - very "little" and very ambitius for a long period of time. Seeking for succes.
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On the other hand, Russia was "uknown" - but their undocumended female lines are in allmost all european pedigrees today. Do anyone really knows what is there?
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..and thank you for your dialog.
I never laught so much.
LOL
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Grece, you broken my nervs with your theory.
I rennounce . You have right . Little Back Yard breeders destroyed dobermann race.
Have a nice day.

QED.
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Italy is uknown? Are you crazy?
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Agree. No consipracy
Isstupidity to promote big empty heads fully by ills.
lol

2011-09-15 12:44:29 ::: IP:62.1.122.196 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece


The selection is another think. If I am a judge who desperately seeks for strong heads ( a problem before the 90s) and finaly I find one, I will promote it. A conspiracy is not necessary for this to happen.
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In conclusion :

In a unknow country, in a unknow back yard, a unknow little backyard breeder , breeded a unknow no name female and he have so much succes than he become over night a BigBreeder with High level protection tille his unkno2 bloodline based in unknow dobermanns , winned all IDC titles from begining till to present and from a unknow little breeder he transformed in the Bigest Big Breeder .

Perfect.I lost my time :-)
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I dont point to BYBs at all - I point to big breeders off course. Big breeders with skeletons in there closets.
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The selection is another think. If I am a judge who desperately seeks for strong heads ( a problem before the 90s) and finaly I find one, I will promote it. A conspiracy is not necessary for this to happen.
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LOl..already you offered the answer, more fast than me. LOL
In conclusion THE LITTLE BACK YARD BREEDERS are guilty !
Shame of them !
LOL
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I waiting your answer: little back yard breeders !
LOL
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Big breeders start as small breeders - think about it Romania...
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You don't knwo yet WHO make selection by scores of years ?
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Grece , your trace is false.
the not a little back yard breeder promoted a unknow bloodline till become dominant LOL. Nor they make selection year by year....
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My idea is NOT that the cross happened in UNIMPORTANT breeder's kennels - on the contrary I think that some of these breeders eventually became very important and prominent, but they are not the political percons you think. They may pass as "unpolitical " today... The cross in in the backround of their breeding. I have my ideas and information - you have yours .
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also to me it seems the ones already mollosid type maybe through chico ... his father odin definetely showed it with the heavy coat ..white hairs ...combined forces with a newer infusion of boxer ,.bulldog type ....
c
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Grece, my real idea is that if crosses happened , that happened in BigBreeders kennels , and was promoted on high level, not in a unknow little breeder which breed a dog without full pedigree in his backyard , with zero impact .


2011-09-15 12:03:14 ::: IP:62.1.122.196 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece

.

Romanian my real idea is that if crosses happened, they happened intepedently most in Italy and Russia - and today we see the results of these genes joining forces in morphology and character.
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I dont speak for your particular dog UK, but about the what I see in UK show dog pictures, of dogs before the modern introduction of the recent european dobermann in your country.

Romanian my real idea is that if crosses happened, they happened intepedently most in Italy and Russia - and today we see the results of these genes joining forces in morphology and character.
The registration of dogs from faenotype only, is only one of the ways for foreign blood to be introduced. Another way is to do other matings than the ones you register - very possible before DNA tests.
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not great dane not rottweiller....not beaucron ....but bulldog or boxer
c
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On the other hand, another research done into the genome of the European Dobermann (Leroy et al. 2009) gives evidence of, that the European Dobermann has no trace of the original dog breeds, but is related to that of the molosoid breeds as Bulldog or Boxer (see figure 3).

c
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good point val ,..but why are they finding no trace of the original dobermann ..in the euro dobermann ..but a boxer or bulldog in the genone..unless the dogs tested were from non big breeders ..unless the testing is flawed
cam
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Grece, your trace is false.
the pedigree type B (without all parents knowed) exist and today and in Romania, not only in Greece.
Their IMPACT in Romania and in European bloodlines is ZERO .

Here we talk about Big Breeders breeding international impact , not back yard breeders with ZERO impact .
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i remember asking margaret why the mix with american ..she replied she still had the power of the euro dogs...but the better movement comes from american dogs
c
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her dogs were not much in shows ...as the type was more tavey based then
c
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greece the barrilmne male i had was ex in type ...they were based on wilm and grief...and baron v bavaria ...and yes mixed with american even though that hardly noticed ;;;later on she used more on perez v frankenhorst much different type ..not as powerfull
even he was a lovely dog himself
c
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In UK there is a peculiar tedency for your older european and american mixes to develop heavy lips and skin I think. Some of your champs are gross ...
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one of the best mixes i have seen was in spain with a beaucron and dobermann,..
c
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hi greece agree with you to a point ..but not all forrell dogs heads were so weak ..i had a male from the 80s linebred to wilm ...his head was very strong ..
as you said the more show working type of the past e,g bronco v zenn was powerful ,,,,few ellendonk dogs were also but not all

maybe some features which showed in some pups such as very heavy coats ..shorter in legs ...heads abit rottweiller ..beaucron ...were to do with the butchers dog ...i should imagine any testing then would have showed something like this then

,but the build of some dogs has seem to have changed since the 90s ,..which may mean an infusion was made in the 80s .
c
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We are agree that the longevity problem came from the principal lines.
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Romania - the main political here with an agenda is you.
The longevity problem is not related to the mastiffoid infusion if happened - it is due to accidental selection of lethal genes because some popular sires possesed them.
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...In Greece there was a system to register dogs without pedigree for breeding after inspection for 3 generations. I bet that some of the registered dogs of every breed were mongrels - but the descedants of some of them are in the studbooks today. This practice began at the 80s and stopped at the end of 90s ( our kennel club is very recent...) In other FCI countries there was this practice too, some time longer in the past. Italy for example had this system I think ( the LIR registration) . It is sure that "something" could be passed. Fortunately, in Greek dobermanns the results of this practice are negligible. I know that this blood is not in recent registered dobermanns in Greece any more - but in other countries who knows.
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please, I don't like to read more pathetical political excuses gen : the problems is from always in the race, because IS FALSE. 20 yeas ago eastern European space was FULLY by 15 years longevive dobermanns.
This is the truth and not the pathetical excuses.

...write arguments but please menage my nervs. Thank you.
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Too much bla bla.
One thing is CLEAR : all the problems comed via this dominant bloodlines . Starting with '90 years , ussing a show breeding system was destroyed almost all different genetic bloodlines till nothing remained.
Point.
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This is a question for Sonia I think...

My personal opinion ( which may be wrong of course), is that both happened: selection of a certain type first, introduction to accelerate things somewhat latter, when this type became popular... Some time after WWII, a trend for more powerful dogs begun in Europe. With selection, some powerful dogs appeared - the so called "working type", not to be confused with the working line dogs of today. Compact, deep, strong boned. The introduction may had happened in 70s, not in the principal kennels ( Germania and Forel dogs didnt have headtypes which can result from foreign infusion - they are longish, narrow, less stop, some Roman nosed, they look weak compared to today standart show dog heads ) and eventually resulted to a number of popular sires some generations and time latter - at the 90s maybe.
From my experience with people who breed, ambitious young breeders think that is easy to make a certain style of dog using another breed - may someone did it then.
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How long do you define recent.
C
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The real problem of the breed - health= DCM - is older than this "introduction", IF happened.
In any case, EVERY european dobermann has almost the same amount of these genes, (I bet your dogs and also DN dogs have the same amount as everyone too), and I will agree with Sonia in :

"I offer in the text of my article two logical possibilities to explain the genomic differences observed between the two sides Dobermanns: asymmetric selection in America and Europe (other evidence, both in terms of anatomy and the character), or by the introduction of foreign breeds in the genome of the founders. There are two possibilities, but is unlikely to know for sure which one is real, why just arguing you about the possibility more morbid? The reality is what it is, and should better think about the possible future from this reality that looking for ghosts. I have no vocation for Ghostbusters."
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Grece

their introduction was not recently , but their selection and destruction of rest , YES
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I wonder if anyone red really what Sonia wrote... Lol.

"...this introduction has NOT been recently, because the homogeneity of the sample in the study of Leroy excludes this possibility."
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I decided to don't breed more. If I will do that will be extremly rare and only for myself , for keep my bloodline .
God to protect dobermann breed, because breeders adon't did that !
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anyway..I know that I lost my time . I heard with my ears breeders fully by that bloodlines in pedigree in IMENSE inbreeding coefficients which said that they wish to mate on same bloodlines even that mean to double them. This breeders NOR russian roulette can't stop .
What can I say to them ?
Succes !
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Or maybe you want do genetical analyse all first DR page matings ...
You can see that this bloodlines ancestors are increased in a geometrical progresion: double on each generation.

The principal problem is..the DCM, because his poligenetic character...to double same genetic mean to double the risk of DCM .

Then is stupid when peoples said that I offer russian roulette. I only attentionate them . The choice is ony of them and unfortunately all dobermanns , inclusive mine (and I don't like that) , play this roulette.
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Camelot..tell me ONE name from actual European show bloodlines . You are free to choice what you want, except DN .
And I will prove that his genetic is based on Bryan, Chico , Odin Forell, Frankenhorst , Hertog Alfa and Olive Bamby Pride.

this is the bottleneck of dobermann race.
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.... The inbreeding is happened again and again in same Frankenhorst and Forell ancestors because they are dominant and presents in all the rest lines via Royal/Renewal , Quirinus, Gamon, Jivago.
Because this reasons the bottle neck appear on ussing of that bloodlines.
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The starting maternal of Quinn and Citone is a rere one and in genetical minority . The bottle-neck is because huge presance of Forell/frankenhorst via Roveline, Baron bryan , Ebo, Kastra.
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I agree that citone dogs show Italian style and look true to breed type..but from I can gather there saying due to the breeding there part of the bottleneck best to ask them direct who they mean
C
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False . The basical genetical baggage of Quinn Nobili Nati and Citone starting line are the today resistance of today dobermann breed . I can not imaginate dobermann breed without their genetical baggage .
Their alternative are Forell, Frankenhorst all based in Olive Bamby Pride. That already happened over Gino and Prinz presance . Is a genetical truth.
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2011-09-14 08:31:55 ::: IP:213.205.196.36 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)
Which could mean if the results are correct that a foreign infusion was made in the 80s or 90s
Val ,,the bottleneck I think they talking about is dogs like gino ,,prinz...qurinus
C
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Which could mean if the results are correct that a foreign infusion was made in the 80s or 90s
Val ,,the bottleneck I think they talking about is dogs like gino ,,prinz...qurinus
C
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I noticed some dogs having rottweiller and beaucron features in them in the 1980s Quite possible it was there before that
C
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"The breedings taking place today - approx 95% of these, are within the same family => a bottleneck which degenerate the breed."

And the rest perhaps within the other, much smaller family...
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Can you name this dominant family which degenerate the breed ?

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2011-09-13 19:36:23 ::: IP:62.44.134.7 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Denmark
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The breedings taking place today - approx 95% of these, are within the same family => a bottleneck which degenerate the breed.

Bitten
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Sorry on portable didn't mean to put dog twice
Basically to be supreme ch the dog has to have all
C
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Good point gb maybe there should be a supreme title where a dog has a dog has a beauty title and sch 3 or eq or korung
C
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Put it like this where working dogs have been mixed with more show it has done no harm but as you said you can easily lose work ability to work both sides would have to better conformation and character

I'm afraid the show world dictates. When the requirement for a top show winner to only achieve ZTP and not Sch H111 and IPO111 like winners of the past the breeders just opted for ZTP. Blame the show judges !!
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Put it like this where working dogs have been mixed with more show it has done no harm but as you said you can easily lose work ability to work both sides would have to better conformation and character
C
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The dogs that could work such as alpha and Ali and bronco are much different from the present the gap has become very wide because neither has budged
C
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2011-09-13 15:50:21 ::: IP:83.45.223.167 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Spain

I read in one message that Bingo v. Ellendonk “was known for a very long and weak back and not a dog who would pass on sufficent strength of head and underjaw”; but we should ask: Do he needs? As working Dobermann he was the best and only Dobermann to do a perfect score of 300 points in ScH III. Even, his offspring is healthy and longevity.

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The dogs of the past, might not have had a huge underjaw or a bit head, still they were able to performe - work as the breed was intended.
The dogs of the past, might not have had a short and strong back, but the for certain had the ability of bodily functionallity.

Bitten
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2011-09-13 15:50:21 ::: IP:83.45.223.167 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Spain

I have explained several times as a genetic disease appears and increases in prevalence in a population. I do not like repeating myself, but I remember that bottlenecks in the genetic history the breed, the use of popular dogs, the disproportion between males and females in the breeding population, the extreme inbreeding and the use of dogs at risk (affected or carriers) were the factors that have contributed to this sad reality.

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The breedings taking place today - approx 95% of these, are within the same family => a bottleneck which degenerate the breed.

Bitten
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2011-09-13 18:26:34 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania


that happened long time ago but the selection of that bloodlines introduced and fixed in dobermann race these ills.

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Didn't read that Sonia stated it happend a long time ago - she wrote
"If a foreign breed has been introduced in the past, this introduction has not been recently, because the homogeneity of the sample in the study of Leroy excludes this possibility." - note the word "recently" ...

Bitten
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After the chatboard atack on Sonny del Citto and his half sister Heracleea , what do you think that happened ?

My mail is fully by questions if Citto is for sale anymore
No, is not for sale, he remain in kennel .

Probable they understood that a powerfull bones obtained from a dog almost fully paternal HD A , without skeleton imense today problems of molosoidal lines , with genetic based on +11 years Gino and best Q Citone litter , with D'acciaio Quinn Nobili Nati and D'aciaio via Alfa Citone via Kira del Caimano , with best old and new American presance in pedigree, with best old Italian presance in pedigree, with Faun Vom Weinberge and Jack Vom Weinberge on base by 200 times , like Citto Citone is , even his products are not perfect, never will be egual with surrogates .
Because a D'acicio is a D'aciaio.

_________________
at the fine another dedication with a molosoidal head. LOL
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/32/dsc05051a.jpg/
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Good post Sonya , you confirm some things wroted by my by long time about relation etween ills and possible foreign molosoidal infusion in dobermann breed ; that happened long time ago but the selection of that bloodlines introduced and fixed in dobermann race these ills.
You explain in stiencefic mode what always I sensed that here is a foreign influence and my categoric refuse of bloodlines based on molosoidal traits .
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Which dogs from the g-litter Royal Bell are alive?

http://www.dobermannpedigrees.nl/modules/pedigree/dog.php?id=40833
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Thank you Sonia...
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Great entry Sonia - and SO correct :)

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Very good Sonia.
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I do not usually read the Chatboard, but at the suggestion of a friend I read the previous posts and noted that the debate is heating up... As far as I'm concerned, I would make some considerations.

Regardless of the possible causes of the genomic differences observed between the results obtained by Leroy et al. (2009) for European Dobermanns. and Parker et al. (2004) for American Dobermanns, these genomic differences are not random. 21 autosomal microsatellite markers were chosen to perform the analysis in the study of Leroy et al. (2009); sample is large enough (30 dogs) and homogeneous (100% of similitude between 30 dogs of the sample applying test standard for inclusion for each dog). The animals were sampled in order to be representative of the their breed genealogical structure using the French Kennel Club data base: each sample showed values for the average coefficients of inbreeding and kinship similar to those computed for the whole breed. The neighbour-joining tree on the loci was constructed using 1000 bootstraps, and bootstrap values above 70% were considered as significant in this study. The phylogenetic relationships are not coincidences are proven scientific facts.

I offer in the text of my article two logical possibilities to explain the genomic differences observed between the two sides Dobermanns: asymmetric selection in America and Europe (other evidence, both in terms of anatomy and the character), or by the introduction of foreign breeds in the genome of the founders. There are two possibilities, but is unlikely to know for sure which one is real, why just arguing you about the possibility more morbid? The reality is what it is, and should better think about the possible future from this reality that looking for ghosts. I have no vocation for Ghostbusters.

If a foreign breed has been introduced in the past, this introduction has not been recently, because the homogeneity of the sample in the study of Leroy excludes this possibility. The phylogenetic studies based on genome rapidly detect the introduction of alien races, and this is not the case. For instance genomic scans have detected the recent introduction of foreign breeds in Dogo Canario genome (Parker et al. 2004 Science; 304(5674):1160-4) as I know by experience.

Moreover, if this introduction occurred at some point, the chances that the genes contributed by this “alien” breed are linked to DCM in the Dobermann is remote, maximum for a polygenic disease. The number of genes that are alien breed after 15 cycles of backcrossing are only 0.0015% (for 20000 genes only 30 genes). There are described the same two modalities DCM in both Am & Eu populations: dilated modality (more frequents in males) with echocardiographic signs and ventricular arrhythmias (more frequents in females) with electrocardiographic signs. So nothing in principle supports this hypothesis

Another thing is that some of these foreign genes have been fixed by linkage with the old genes as result of the selection of anatomical features. If the selection of head morphology traits, have favored the setting of a mutation on chromosome 5 is a logical reflection by genomic proximity and by the high selection applied on this trait, but only is another logical possibility. I never claimed that this has occurred.

I have explained several times as a genetic disease appears and increases in prevalence in a population. I do not like repeating myself, but I remember that bottlenecks in the genetic history the breed, the use of popular dogs, the disproportion between males and females in the breeding population, the extreme inbreeding and the use of dogs at risk (affected or carriers) were the factors that have contributed to this sad reality.

When we select the anatomical characteristics in purebred dogs sometimes we have the idea that selection is a game without rules, where anything is possible. It is often said: "my ideal dog would have the body X and head Y", but the evolutionary genetics has its rules, and the selection allows for many things but not all. Everything we can not have and often have to choose for example between the handsome fool and the less graceful but ready.

The anatomical and behavioural traits are quantitative traits determined by multiple genes. The difference is that anatomical traits are highly heritability, but the character traits have low heritability and disappear with great ease. Working simultaneously in both wit high level of excellence is a chimera. To prove it we just have to ask the breeders of true working or hunting dogs. I read in one message that Bingo v. Ellendonk “was known for a very long and weak back and not a dog who would pass on sufficent strength of head and underjaw”; but we should ask: Do he needs? As working Dobermann he was the best and only Dobermann to do a perfect score of 300 points in ScH III. Even, his offspring is healthy and longevity. Why do we want a Doberman with a firm back if he dies within days of winning the IDC? Why do we want a dog with a good underjaw if he does not bite or bites when he should not? In a historical perspective, one might wonder if during the last thirty years we have improved or worsened the breed.

The modern selection in European Dobermann is verified in many cases on a more robust and brachycephalic type with “bodybuilding look”. The beauty is subject to fashions trends, but fashions come and go. After, we have probably only useless rags in a trunk.

Sonia
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I think that the best way is the sportive ring confruntation and the time which will decide .
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To: 2011-09-12 22:49:55 ::: IP:69.195.136.106 ::: from United States

"What do you people think about breeding 2 DCM DNA positive tested dogs? I am considering a puppy from an interesting litter but I want to know about the risks involved. The other parent is positive homozygote and the other is positive heterozygote. Is there any change to get a negative puppy out of that litter? I am relatively new to this and I do not know where to ask."


Where do you find an idiot like this? There is no way to get a negative puppy out of that kind of combination. Half of the puppies will be positive homozygotes anf half of them will be positivie heterozygotes. Id say this is playing with fire. This gene test is relatively new and it does not always correlate to the dogs DCM status but there is a connection. This is the reason why breeders should NOT breed litters where there is no negative puppies at all!
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Valencia:"Have character and no need from YOU to tell me what is good and what is bad or about the influences of SURROGATES in my bloodline "

I could say the same to you!Who are you to tell me what to do?
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......and why Dimanate Nero ?
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Now you understood Mr.Pezzano why I entered in battle with molosoids for release D'acciaio ?
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P.S. I am not concerned by some skin ...this nothing mean for my bloodline to eliminate that ...other things are more important and because that I choiced powerfull Sonny which descend from two nonolosoidal parents.
If I wrong or no..we will see in 10 years who will remain and who no.
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P.S. In translation : Have character and no need from YOU to tell me what is good and what is bad or about the influences of SURROGATES in my bloodline .
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@Romania : The roulette is gived by bloodlines breeded inclusive by you , not by last Romanian female bloodline , 13.5 years Arena . That was my bloodline and no other.

Si aveti putin caracter , nu-i nevoie sa-mi spuneti VOI mie ce e bine si rau si care sunt influentele surogatilor in linia mea.

@UK , she's out from Citto Citone and First Favorite

@USA, from a DCM HOMO , never can result a total DCM NEGATIVE , he always will inherite minimal one ill gene. More that , DCM is poligenetical and this test represent only one part from what mean DCM.
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What do you people think about breeding 2 DCM DNA positive tested dogs? I am considering a puppy from an interesting litter but I want to know about the risks involved. The other parent is positive homozygote and the other is positive heterozygote. Is there any change to get a negative puppy out of that litter? I am relatively new to this and I do not know where to ask.
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So ,you don't like when others say the truth about your dogs!I don't need photos!You are the big judge only from the photos!Don't say to me that I attack!you are the one who gives to all of us the "roullette".For future time don't say that the rest of the world have "surogates",and only you have the best dobermann!If you attack don't wait for us to say :PEACE
Take a look at your own dogs and after this talk about the others!
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she had a nice head type ...nice length of muzzle who is she out of?
c
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Probable this long head and long muzzle mean molosoidal tipicity for some specialists ? lol
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/herahead.jpg/

P.S. Anyway..they hane NOT so TOTAL destroyed eyes like others....
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aveti ma caracter , in ring a existat un arbitru.
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This is molosoidal tipicity ? :-)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/heracleeaheart.jpg/

And..don't try to do this , risk to broken dogs necks :-)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/98/dsc04728c.jpg/
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Regarding Heraclea , if she is molosoid..then your dobermann is...Bloodhound
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It is true , Sonny have some molosoidal traits, not verry accentuated , but have . You are only 1/2 specialist , because your apreciation is only 1/2 true, his eyes still are nice and the shapes are inherited from his mother , the too strong eyes arcades induce you in error. You must to work on fine acord of judgement.

I get this dog from my friend kennel yeard and I introduced him DIRECTLY in Club show where he proved that he is NORMAL IN HEAD. The presentation mode was conform to this total unpreparation for show.

I accept that his head it is not exactly the tipicity what I try to construct but my bloodline have what is need to eliminate that indesirable traits in next generation .My bloodline need power and Sonny have power . I preffer to get power from him and to avoid other bloodlines full by HD problems and osature problems .
He's stable and open in character and this is a very good advantage .

Can you imaginate powerfull Sonny with a Diamante Nero slim head ? The answer is for sure NO.

P.S. When you atack a Romanian breeder is nice to asum what you said and sign .
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Valencia:"Why my bloodline have so much resistance in face of mastofoidal traits (bulk heads, round eyes, cretin character , big bones , short legs , skin from Bucharest to Roma ?"
You should sit down and listen-your dogs are not able to save the world.Why Sonny del Citto has so much skin ,that you must show him with your hand under his head?Also take a look at his eyes-not at all a good type,and his lips !
About your last female that you show us as a a female with strong mandible(by the way that is underjaw),take a look closer to her lips
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i cant see it mind you i am long sighted now ...does this confirm that different dogs within the breed even in europe have different genomes depending on which dogs have been tested...
c
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2011-09-12 13:53:09 ::: IP:85.73.131.12 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Greece

Yes, there are many interesting things popping up, when running through the list of genome results.

Bitten
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Look at the article - the GS is clustered with Mastiffoids in the structure study ( in this one the Doberman Pincher is clustered with the modern hunting dogs ).
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Kyrana v bavaria IDC Jungensieger owner H WIBLISHAUSER
TR Dali& Demi V4 CHAMPION CLASS owner ERIKA SOKOL
TR Giniti VeteranIDC sieger owner ERIKA SOKOL
Stella v Klingbach V1 working class owner Tomas Becht
INCREDIBLE. NO COMENT.
#15 - bismark - 31.08.2011
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greece who put the german shepherd as a mastiff breed?
c
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It is interesting that someone thought to compare the results of these studies... I find it interesting that there are deferences too, concerning other breeds - for example the 1st study puts the German Shepherd together with collies and wolfhybrids, the 2nd study puts it with mastiffoids... I wonder...
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@IP:84.0.200.107 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Hungary

waiting the mail adress of mr Csepai on V.dobermann@yahoo.com
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and if correct all may not be as it seems
c
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I kow that my words seem to be dure ...
I think this must to be a colective dobermann lovers battle for discovery the right dobermann type , in phisical and characterial traits , and good health.
The source of entire race problem is genetical , is the desequilibrum of foreign infusions over original dobermann .
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And Diamante Nero too, because Massimo was smart and knowed how to get mastifoids power but without Furstenfeld genetic losting .

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2011-09-11 06:39:39 ::: IP:92.40.253.90 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


I re-read it greece it more , or less says the boxer penetrated the breed ..and valencia is correct when he says gino avoided ..
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2011-09-10 18:05:37 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania


In my mind I have a question. Because last days all talk about mastifoids which transformed dobermann race in a surrogate with mastif genetic , I have a question.
Why my bloodline have so much resistance in face of mastofoidal traits (bulk heads, round eyes, cretin character , big bones , short legs , skin from Bucharest to Roma ?
Why ? Ups.


maybe it didn't have to resist ,,,
c
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On the other hand, another research done into the genome of the European Dobermann (Leroy et al. 2009) gives evidence of, that the European Dobermann has no trace of the original dog breeds, but is related to that of the molosoid breeds as Bulldog or Boxer (see figure 3).


it more, or less says it above ....the question is how much has it penetrated
c
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I re-read it greece it more , or less says the boxer penetrated the breed ..and valencia is correct when he says gino avoided ..
c
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The original ? The Manchester - Greyhound crosses were not the original.
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at the fine of my intervention , again of dedication

If you don't accept the original , then play that :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57C-SdiV9l4
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I am happy because finnaly the war against molosoids was declared and peoples start to ask theirself and start to search the ORIGINAL DOBERMANN TYPE ! We must to penalyse any molosoid trait, any molosoid gene from dobermann race .
The problem is that they entered soo deep in our dobermanns genetic that already changed dobermann genome .

Only few bloodlines still resist . That lines must be protect otherwise all of us we will finish to breed surrogates.
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This bloodline started from Warlock and Arthal represent a important part of losted Romanian line . In combination with Weinberge and Eastern they lived till to 15 and has fantastic character and natural smartness .

http://www.dobermannpedigrees.nl/modules/pedigree/pedigree.php?pedid=25539
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... right regard American dobes, their very affected health said that there the original genome of dobermann was changed too . When happened nobody can say with precision .
I do not know American lines and without informations it is impossible to analyse.I am couriouse if health problems affected traditional American lines (Warlock, Arthal,Dobes Storm) or only new modern lines.
I think Americans (like Russians and Easterns too) "sell" to easy their national values , because I think they haved the ORIGINAL (imported around world wars years ), before the dobermann genome to endure molosoidal destruction .
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lol sorry sent message from portable ..lots of typing mistakes ..i mean't ronnie doesn't your dog have urbano in him?
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First who said the mastiff infusion happened in the 1970. Or 1960s second who said gino looks mastiff I just mentioned Chico his son Odin had long hair and White hairs. And that normally in big substance dogs u see slot of inbreeding to them Much different from comparing furstenfeld or germania which were similar.in style
Broco v zenn also had the bones of Chico. The dogs nowadays are much more inbred.
Ronnie correct but does your fog not have urbano in it Massimo has done an ex job in strengthen the head but keeping away from bulk
C
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Italy, what is problem with Fedor sperm
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Correct statement . To consider Citone a molosoidal line is a joke :-)
In general he endure reproachs that his dogs are not so strong in body, in bones , in heads ...
I knowed in past direct descendants of D'acciaio line - the starting Citone and Quinn Nobili Nati line . She was mother of my male , best male in character and brain which I ever seen .
All the rest are SURROGATES comparative with them!

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2011-09-10 14:40:04 ::: IP:92.40.253.167 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


I brought up Gino because he seems to the only one if correct in that article whose head is going to pure dobermann..the rest seem to be going to different breeds
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Thank you Ronindobe

Geoff
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In my mind I have a question. Because last days all talk about mastifoids which transformed dobermann race in a surrogate with mastif genetic , I have a question.
Why my bloodline have so much resistance in face of mastofoidal traits (bulk heads, round eyes, cretin character , big bones , short legs , skin from Bucharest to Roma ?
Why ? Ups.
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It is not necessary to accouse breeders from 1970 years and after.
In my opinion the mastifoid infussion happened before their breeding years ; they only multiplied that bloodlines till dobermann becomed genetical a MASTIFOID .LOL

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2011-09-10 11:22:08 ::: IP:94.197.127.48 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)
...if more mastiff blood has been added .. when was it added as we knew v hagenstern produced powerful heavy dogs ....and some of Mrs Bastables dogs were absoutely massive...there is a definte change in the toplines ...and some dogs definetely do show massiff features ,....with the shorter legs but as we know there was dogs in the 1980s with this feature.....and for massive dogs like von hagenstern were going back earlier
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Sure that he know. He was to smart and best which know the type of the race to don't know to recognise a surrogate
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2011-09-10 11:22:08 ::: IP:94.197.127.48 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)

.... maybe Herr Palmer already knew the problem
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And where is your logic ? How do you think that ONE infusion with a free disease in actual again and again and again and again genetic will solve the problem ?

And what garantee to you that breeders which don't acept the phisical non show traits from a pure dobermann will accept infussion with a TOTAL diferent race ?

At the fine, what color will have in future our doberanns?
Yellow or green ?

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011-09-10 10:44:23 ::: IP:94.197.127.206 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)

.no other way would work because it is not only the v eichenhaim blood if this is where the problems lay ... its other lines from the mix from other countries with similar problems ....even if one line is completely free ...if we say a working line ...it never be accepted mainly because of the physical weaknesses......
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FALSE again !
If you don't like a surrogate caffe , how can you think you will make a good caffe ussing another surrogate ?

It is not sufficientlly actual genetical battle and you sugest to introduce anouther SURROGATES ?
Yes, the breed must be cleaned , but not in this mode.


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Dare I say this yet again. We can help to rid the breed of DCM by using other breeds that do not have a DCM problem in a controlled breeding programme.

Geoff Caunt
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What many people already know ? this is the first time when that things are writed !

The ideea that DCm is from always in race IS FALSE . The ideea that Mastiffs are from always on race is false too .Because I knowed the dobermann withoit DCM and without mastifoid blood.
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2011-09-10 10:23:38 ::: IP:86.23.12.115 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


Bitten's atricle is interesting in that it demonstrates what I think many people already know, the European dog has had other blood introduced to create a more powerful impressive animal. Since this introduction has failed to stem the rise of DCM it can only be deduced that the foreign blood was from breeds with the same problem. Mastiffs for instance certainly have heart problems.
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Isn't short legs all about you can write???

Baskal what is with your breeding - how is the longevity of the dogs you breed? I'm very interested in it because you also make 1-2 incest breeding on your Kevin King del Citone who died suddenly at 6 like Mars of Kraft Hill...

On greece internet side there is nothing obout this but in your greece forum. Why did you make such an inbreeding when you know the risk FOR THE DOGS?
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O had seen enough short legs in Baron Cecar - Bonita - Baroness Eva combos from 2 long legged parents. I think that all 3 B Van Rensloos had the genetic potential to throw them.
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Excellent discussion, Geoff/Mark. Thanks for the experience and observations....very useful and thought provoking.

Ronindobe
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yeah i was there when baron bryan v harrosberg was made dv sieger...he was without doubt the best dog there ...with a really beautiful body and head ...maybe abit heavy ..but still a beautiful dog ...if i remember rightly guido was runner up
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I brought up Gino because he seems to the only one if correct in that article whose head is going to pure dobermann..the rest seem to be going to different breeds
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bonita van rensloo was one of the rensloo dogs who seemed to throw the short legs and as you see with atleet van hermansjomaik ....i would say the breed seemed to change from the this period of late 1960s .and seemed to be with chico forrell ...odin forrell ...hagenstern dogs...jurgen ..ero etc the ,more shorter heavier compact type ..much different from vello ..who had the much longer back
mark
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Mark

Curiously you have brought up Citone.

The heads produced by this breeder are quite good. Not up to Furstenfeld standards but relatively slim and correct if you compare them to dogs who are far too heavy in skull and have the wrong proportion of skull to foreface.

The blue Baron Bryan son we had lived to 10+ years. Even in old age his coat was dense and thick with no sign of baldness. Everything we have today is basically from this male and and his black brother coupled to the Furstenfeld bloodline.

Yes Gino Gomez had a nice head but for me far too deep in the stop
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Hi Geoff

Yes I remember asking Margaret why such big dogs ..she said thats what the average person wants ..which is not far from the truth to this day ...personally I appreciate both ......as said we did start to see sloping backs ..big builds asfar back as the 1970s ...and as said there has been huge inbreeding on these dogs ...I think that is something we have to consider when looking at these dogs backgrounds ....and compare the dogs in that pedigree ...not with other dogs with nothing much to do with the pedigree ,,,

,however i am not saying slight infusions have , or not been made ...but if they have filtered into the mainstream ...we must first look at all the dogs in that dogs pedigree and there features and how that dog has been bred .....before we can say its got another breed in there ......esmir has a sloping back ....and from pictures elisir di campo has very much a sloping back and these dogs are 30 years ago or more ...allowing for selection to take place

yes i remember i saw your baron bryan son ...and as we know baron bryan v harrosberg is also one of the dogs who throws blues

asfar as Lex Luthor..from the pictures i have seen of him he is one of the most impressive non european dog i have seen

......getting back to the article it shows various heads going back to different breeds ....dont know if i read it clearly but is it saying gino gomez head is the only one that has pure dobermann in it ... i see the viewpoints of some of the heads and would say yes gino has a beautiful correct head
Mark
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Mastiff, Boxer etc should perhaps not be used to describe what is believed to be an infusion of foreign blood but Molosser which covers a wide range of breeds from the Mastiff to the Boerboel and Agentinian Dogo. Some of these breeds do not have huge wrinkled heads, can be quite athletic and do possess guarding ability. Some one has said but it cant be a Mastiff because Dobermanns have a sloping backline. I think we should assume the infusion is slight but compounded because more than one breeder has performed the outcross and this over time has changed the core breeds which we know created the Dobermann.

Mark
To answer your questions:
I didnt know Margaret's Kapitan although I agree with you the Barrimilne dogs were usually very substantial possibly because Margaret bred for big powerful dogs.
Regarding the South American dogs,all I have to compare is the male we used a couple of times at stud. He had the most beauiful head, was very stylish but not overstyled. His problem for me was character or rather the lack of it coupled with the fact he was highly dog aggressive a trait I understand from Lex Luthor.

You have aksed, in another post, I think it's you, about Baron Cecar v Rensloo. Baron was not short in leg just weak in leg. There was a rumour that his hip scores were false. I used his son Baron Bryan and inbred on Bryan and we noticed some offspring had weakness in the hindquarters

Geoff
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what i have found in this big built square type dogs ...is that they normally have lots of chico ...aldo v forrellhein ...jurgens son ..astrid amanda was also known for lots of substance ....
Aldo was a square short dog from the 1970s ...and van rensloo as mentioned ..already dogs known for lots of substance ...i think that article doesnt mention these dogs or show these dogs that had powerful builds in the 1970s ..then relate to the dogs they mention

infact esmir was considered as a bitch built like a male ....
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Agree - the B van Rensloo was a short legged litter. Some dobs inbred to this litter results with shorter legs even if the parents are normal or long legged. I had some such cases.
But the condition is known at least from the 1st part of the 20nth century.
Urian of Grammont was a short legged male whose blood is deep in the breed in all world.
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well greece the boxer is the only dog that i can think of that resembles this square short body ....but as we can see if we look at these types we can normally find Esmir van Hermansjomaik...or van rensloo..correct me but was baron bryan v harroberg father short in the leg
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i belive this type most properly came from Esmir van Hermansjomaik. and .i think the short legness was a feature of some van rensloo dogs
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Yes - but on the other hand the boxer pops up as a very close relative in some studies and its DCM has the same type of damage ( fatty infiltration ) of the cardiac muscle as in the dobermann. It is the color of the Boxer that it is hard to breed out - the big white patches more than the brindle or fawn. The very abnormal head of the boxer is very reccesive. Also the boxer has some working ability... Who knows.
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your right greece the only dog i can think of that wou;ld have a similar square short sloping back would be the boxer ...i think it would be very difficult to breed out a boxer
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The slopping back cannot come from a mastiffoid infusion - they almost all have horizontal topline or they are taller behind. It is a result of selection.
Also the DCM is common in american bloodlines too - and the type of the dobermann DCM is not the same as the DCM found in other breeds.
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Hi Geoff

Yes can see by Palmers breeding that it was based on Cito and Cita ...not on Vello or Bordo....It was said Jurgen was a big built dog .... why were barrilmine dogs so big through wilm then..mixed with the english blood as you may know The Kapitan was massive he was 70 kilo ..and i met him ...

Yes I have noticed the difference in the south and north....is the south more bigger through euro blood mixed with american ...or is it through selection only
cheers
Mark
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Mark

Palmer certainly knew the problems with the breed but we must take into account he liked elegant dogs and consequently bred for that "type". For example he told me Vello was not a good breeding dog yet people liked to use him because of his working ability but didn't take into account his inferior body qualities. For me the Hagenstern dogs were spoiled through excessive loose skin on the lips. Greif was such an example although he was not massive by any account.

To define the American dogs I think we should split the South and North into two groups. The Southern type are over stylish and a little too exagerated. The Northern type too fine. An American breeder told me a lot of the Northern type have oval, rather than round bone while the Southern types can have very good bone with huge spring of rib.

As with most thing do some research then choose your poison !!

Geoff
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as we can see by jurgen v hagenstern ..who is at the tailend of most pedigrees esp through aldo v forrelheim ...the sloping back massive build was already there in the 1970s
http://www.dobermann-pedigrees.com/jurgenvhagenstern.htm
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Hi Geoff and all
Yes maybe Herr Palmer already knew the problem , or not ...if more mastiff blood has been added .. when was it added as we knew v hagenstern produced powerful heavy dogs ....and some of Mrs Bastables dogs were absoutely massive...there is a definte change in the toplines ...and some dogs definetely do show massiff features ,....with the shorter legs but as we know there was dogs in the 1980s with this feature.....and for massive dogs like von hagenstern were going back earlier
but even the usa dobermann some show exaregated features ...but more minus the bulk..of the european dobermann
...its diffucult to know how much is selection and how much is through the combination of selection x inbreeding ... or and how far back or when new breeds were introduced
Mark
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Hi Mark

Yes the Pharoah introduction is interesting. Unfortunately times have changed and while we could breed for an erect ear (the English Bull Terrier people did this) it would not solve the problem of the tail. Health wise the Pharoah is an excellent choice.



Geoff
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e,g Bingo v ellendonk was known for a very long and weak back ,,.and not a dog who would pass on sufficent strength of head and underjaw ....these features would show themselves more if inbred more on
c
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Hi Geoff

I thought it was you ..I can only agree with you ..and wouldn't Herr Palmer;s orginal thought of a Pharoah hound be a perfect choice ..a dog virtually free of genetic diseases ....and could help solve the ear problem ...as said its head is almost similar and body ....only the colour is diffrent ,,,,

.no other way would work because it is not only the v eichenhaim blood if this is where the problems lay ... its other lines from the mix from other countries with similar problems ....even if one line is completely free ...if we say a working line ...it never be accepted mainly because of the physical weaknesses......

and we can not just inbred even more on an already inbred line ...and it would not solve the problem ...much better to work with new breed or breeds that are free of the problem and accomplish a dog that can please all and not the minority whether it be for working or show
c
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Bitten's atricle is interesting in that it demonstrates what I think many people already know, the European dog has had other blood introduced to create a more powerful impressive animal. Since this introduction has failed to stem the rise of DCM it can only be deduced that the foreign blood was from breeds with the same problem. Mastiffs for instance certainly have heart problems.

The article goes on to say that the dogs in the Americas are more pure and true to type but have the same DCM problem as the european dogs. I would guess the answer here is because the dogs are so inbred DCM has become a feature of inbreeding

Dare I say this yet again. We can help to rid the breed of DCM by using other breeds that do not have a DCM problem in a controlled breeding programme. By reference to Bitten's article I cannot think many breeders could object to this given the fact they are probably housing a cross bred dog anyway.

Geoff Caunt
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it certainly didnt inherit the maghoney rust tan
c
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i have to agree with you greece...even if proven the usa type is more to the true dobermann ....it proves that the type has nothing to do with the problem as the usa dobermann has its fair share ...and has you say maybe even more ...its to do with choosing the wrong dogs then inbreeding on them which they were themselves most properly inbred on ....wrong selection
c
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The new Noblesshof breeding - the female has Terror Lewan
and CAYA Jared in pedigree - both died from DCM at 6 and
4. More bad genes over the father. How old the puppies will be?
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Mr Romanian, according to this peace of work, the european dobermann has adittional mastifoid blood and the american is more pure genetically - it represents better the known history of the breed. If there is a prove that selection can change a breed completely, is this "more pure" american doberman - a race without working ability at all, with an exaregated comformation, and also, at least with the same inherited health problems as the european cousin ( I think more) . Selection is everything.
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So they choose the head of Nero dn to show it goes to the old English sheepdog lol yet through him there are the best heads
C
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anyway...this is the trace of article
http://www.thyra.co.uk/wordpress/?p=307

Have fun !
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"Vassilis Kalamaras wroted: The mountain isolated dogs of Gruenig are pure speculation or fantasy. The only dobermann we have is the modern dobermann - and the only tool to improve it, is selection."

FALSE mr Vasilis. The selection can't change so much dobermann race . There is a genetical intervention !

Please consider the article responde:

......"Unnoticed introductions of other breeds in the contemporary selection history of the breed "

"that the European Dobermann has no trace of the original dog breeds"

and maybe you can respond to the article final question :

"Has this change of the genome of the European bred Dobermann, also been the cause of loss of work ability, less good mentality, or are the change within these phenotypic traits caused by overall decline of the general quality of health? "

And keep in your mind my PROPHECY till genetical researches will confirm who is the original :
THE DOBERMANN IS AN DOBERMANN AND HE DESCEND FROM LOUIS DOBERMANN DOBERMANNS . THEY ARE NOT ROTWAILLERS, NOR GREYHOUNDS, NOR BOXERS NOR SURROGATES !
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and dear Bitten, don't forgot that a avalanche always is created by a little snow ball :-)
The same with avalanche of TRUTH .
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when you publish the article ? In 9 September ? Read the Philip Gruning comments on on Weinberge Facebook page from 31 July :-)
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2011-09-09 19:59:50 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania

--

thought you would be interested ... read it closely :)

Bitten
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Perhaps Geoff - but the blue dog in question didn't carry the name Nymphenburg - OK ... and that was what the original statement mentioned.

Bitten

but it did carry the Nymphenburg blood,

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That was not the question - so let's leave it.

Bitten
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wawwwwwwwwww ! I can't stop myseldf

"Has this change of the genome of the European bred Dobermann, also been the cause of loss of work ability, less good mentality, or are the change within these phenotypic traits caused by overall decline of the general quality of health?
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..."Unnoticed introductions of other breeds in the contemporary selection history of the breed "

Very smart conclusion . How many years need to get her ?
LOL
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Perhaps Geoff - but the blue dog in question didn't carry the name Nymphenburg - OK ... and that was what the original statement mentioned.

Bitten

but it did carry the Nymphenburg blood,
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Now because all this chatboard readers are couriouses, I inform the that I will don't post the link. Not now.
Maybe another time.
:-)
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I thinked that the link need some advertising because this very interesting story :-)
Now I go to read ahead..maybe at the fine the autors will find the Mt-DNA to see what MR-DNA is original and what is Surrogate :-)
lol
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2011-09-09 19:43:29 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania

FORGOT - do it in the Forum - this chat doesn't work ...

Bitten
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2011-09-09 19:43:29 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania


Oh Yea ! I forgoted the "circle"
Sorry.

The link is a secret ?

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It was decided to publish the paper, some has already linked up to the page - so, no the site is not a secret - nor our work ...

Bitten
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Oh Yea ! I forgoted the "circle"
Sorry.

The link is a secret ?
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"that the European Dobermann has no trace of the original dog breeds"

Very interesting link . Cam I make him public ?
Anyway Fantastic conclusion :-)
How much time you need to get?
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2011-09-09 19:10:13 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania


now I go to read a new site....
I like the title "to predict the future, from the present, you must know the past "

Who said that ? :-)

---

You forgot:

- the circle of life repeat itself ...

Bitten
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UppsssssUPPSSS

"another research done into the genome of the European Dobermann (Leroy et al. 2009) gives evidence of, that the European Dobermann has no trace of the original dog breeds, but is related to that of the molosoid breeds as Bulldog or Boxer (see figure 3). "

False. Search again and try Great Dane
LOL
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2011-09-09 19:28:38 ::: IP:86.23.12.115 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


was not referring to breedings from Palmer, as he stopped breeding in Germany in 1976 -
I was referring to, that the Kennel Nymphenburg/Iris Krummel, didn't have any blue offspring reged = the possibility of Palmer having a blue pup/dog from the Kennel Nymphenburg doesn't seem likely ...
I also said, I might be wrong = I will go through ALL the breedings of Nymphenburg to get varification.

Bitten

Bitten
As you know Palmer bred through other people but he did not stop breeding. It is easier to say he could not register litters in Germany in his name.
You will not find any blue puppies from Nymphenburg. You will find blue puppies from Feus v Nymphenburg to Elfie v Rosenhof who was a daughter of Gaya v Jura the sister of Gildo v Jura sire of the Nymphenburg J litter. Gaya and Gildo were grandchildren of Nina v Furstenfeld from Brando v Klippeneck a son of Vello v Furstenfeld.
The blue puppies were not bred by Iris but by Walter Panter a close friend.

Geoff

--

Perhaps Geoff - but the blue dog in question didn't carry the name Nymphenburg - OK ... and that was what the original statement mentioned.

Bitten
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P.S. Conclusion about Surrogates.LOL
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UUUUPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSS

Very interesting the site. I wait to see if the genetical researchs will get the conclusion that I sensed by long time :-)

"Moving forward into history, and historical data, also with reference to research of more recent date – there seems to be clear evidence of, that something is not correct – not in accordance to the original genome of the Dobermann. This also seems to be evident within the phenotype of the breed of today. Not only within the difference of the phenotype between the European and American bred dogs, but also when comparing the changes of phenotypic traits within the breed, and to that of the present standard of the breed, set down by the FCI. "
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was not referring to breedings from Palmer, as he stopped breeding in Germany in 1976 -
I was referring to, that the Kennel Nymphenburg/Iris Krummel, didn't have any blue offspring reged = the possibility of Palmer having a blue pup/dog from the Kennel Nymphenburg doesn't seem likely ...
I also said, I might be wrong = I will go through ALL the breedings of Nymphenburg to get varification.

Bitten

Bitten
As you know Palmer bred through other people but he did not stop breeding. It is easier to say he could not register litters in Germany in his name.
You will not find any blue puppies from Nymphenburg. You will find blue puppies from Feus v Nymphenburg to Elfie v Rosenhof who was a daughter of Gaya v Jura the sister of Gildo v Jura sire of the Nymphenburg J litter. Gaya and Gildo were grandchildren of Nina v Furstenfeld from Brando v Klippeneck a son of Vello v Furstenfeld.
The blue puppies were not bred by Iris but by Walter Panter a close friend.

Geoff
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Yes I know his pedigree too, i would like to know more about the dog and what he gives he's old enough to have mature progeny I just wonder what they're like, character confirmation and health from what I understand he's underused unless he gives in desirable qualities.
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now I go to read a new site....
I like the title "to predict the future, from the present, you must know the past "

Who said that ? :-)
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forgot to sign Hungary and it is not a secret my person. I am last Romanian Weinberge.
That for know who request the adress of this rare Hungarian breeder.
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@ 84.0.200.107 from Hungary

I forgot, please send to me if you have Mr.Csepai phone number , I don't talk Hungarian but my best breeder friend Dr. Sipos Andras do and can contact him in my name .

Tks.
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You start to understood dobermann genetic Camelot :-)
LOL


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2011-09-09 15:54:06 ::: IP:92.40.253.7 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


and when i look at her pedigree ,,,,
all i can think is the problem may have come from hella v forrell ..possibly through vija germania
hella inbred 3:3:2 http://www.100megsfree4.com/dobermann/amarildavwachenburg.htm
camelot
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@ 84.0.200.107 from Hungary

Naplemente breeding was the greatest Hungarian breeding EVER.

I waiting Naplemente owner adress and phone on mail V.dobermann@yahoo.com

Thank you !
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2011-09-09 17:37:59 ::: IP:84.0.200.107 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Hungary

How can I find you?
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i mean except his pedigree..i dunno much about him ..but as said he must have fast reactions and something abit extra character wise that the dog himself has a serious business side
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hi ireland i dunno much about his expect his pedigree ,,,but i would to pass the korung ..the dog must have fast reactions and i would has something in them to mean business
camelot
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Sorry for going off topic
Anyone know anything on Yankee vom klingbach as a producer?
I know he's long in loin
Never see much progeny by him, maybe for obvious reasons but has anyone used him or have a son or daughter from him
what does he produce character wise, or was the korung all training?
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Bravou Camelot! You understood his construction!
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and also he was one of the biggest inbreeders ever in the breed ....so the fact is not that he inbred or bred show dogs ...it was that he avoided inbreeding on the wrong lines ..infact maybe that he did inbred on his own dogs was a good thing ..
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2011-09-09 03:23:08 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania

this is a good new. Can you offer me on private moe the adress and tel number of Mr. Csepai ?

How can I find you?
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and when i look at her pedigree ,,,,
all i can think is the problem may have come from hella v forrell ..possibly through vija germania
hella inbred 3:3:2 http://www.100megsfree4.com/dobermann/amarildavwachenburg.htm
camelot
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i know her pedigree ...but any other info as she always seems to be where there is known cases of dcm....and she is inbred
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/doberman_pinscher/dog.html?id=278272

camelot
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any info on this dog
Amarilda V D Wachenburg

camelot
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http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkt6w5 ... er_animals
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just looking at sonias study ....it seems also to confirm that where there is no von eichenhaim blood ...or very little the problem diminishes ...it increases when there is more distant inbreeding on it .....this may also be the fact why furstenfeld dogs overall had good life span ....lets not forget he was not really a working breeder but a show breeder ...and also he was one of the biggest inbreeders ever in the breed ....so the fact is not that he inbred or bred show dogs ...it was that he avoided inbreeding on the wrong lines ..infact maybe that he did inbred on his own dogs was a good thing ..
camelot
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take a look on first DR matings. already they doubled the winners genetic.

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2011-09-08 20:16:47 ::: IP:204.45.133.74 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from United States


And also interresting: they are acusing same politic " nothing doing against" and go to the winner to mate
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And wiblishauser can sleep to night because that. Lol.

2011-09-08 20:16:47 ::: IP:204.45.133.74 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from United States


And also interresting: they are acusing same politic " nothing doing against" and go to the winner to mate
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this is a good new. Can you offer me on private moe the adress and tel number of Mr. Csepai ?

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2011-09-08 20:39:10 ::: IP:84.0.200.107 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Hungary


2011-09-08 18:01:22 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania you have to speak with Mr Csepai about your favorit dogs. His dog are alive more than 10 yeras ... and He knew Gox for sure...
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2011-09-08 20:14:16 ::: IP:204.45.133.74 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from United States


To USA , you asked about working lines and why show dog breeders do not try an outcross with working lines.
He re is a link to the german working dobermann's forum :
http://www.dobermann.com/doghouse/index.php/topic,497.0.html
You will see that they have same problems like us. Some working line breeders used to often same males and the DCM problem is very present also in working lines. Who is interested can find interesting point of views from working line community.
The forum is from site Dobermann Sport und Zucht. Using google it' s easy to translate if you do not know german, even if translation is not exact the main things can be understand.
Everybody here from 2 pages is writing about ancestral lines, history... If you want to teach history of the lines is OK. But will not solve the main problem : how to start a great fight against DCM

Thank you, information I can use :)

bmgillespie
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2011-09-08 21:02:41 ::: IP:62.44.135.22 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Denmark


Bitten: I am looking for Furstenfeldt lines, can you please give some names here? What dogs still carry some of this blood?
And can any who knows the Marienburg kennel please give some info on their dogs/breeding?

---

send mig en e-mail: jotunheims@hotmail.com

Bitten
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Bitten: I am looking for Furstenfeldt lines, can you please give some names here? What dogs still carry some of this blood?
And can any who knows the Marienburg kennel please give some info on their dogs/breeding?
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2011-09-08 18:01:22 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania you have to speak with Mr Csepai about your favorit dogs. His dog are alive more than 10 yeras ... and He knew Gox for sure...
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And also interresting: they are acusing same politic " nothing doing against" and go to the winner to mate
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To USA , you asked about working lines and why show dog breeders do not try an outcross with working lines.
He re is a link to the german working dobermann's forum :
http://www.dobermann.com/doghouse/index.php/topic,497.0.html
You will see that they have same problems like us. Some working line breeders used to often same males and the DCM problem is very present also in working lines. Who is interested can find interesting point of views from working line community.
The forum is from site Dobermann Sport und Zucht. Using google it' s easy to translate if you do not know german, even if translation is not exact the main things can be understand.
Everybody here from 2 pages is writing about ancestral lines, history... If you want to teach history of the lines is OK. But will not solve the main problem : how to start a great fight against DCM
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To Bitten: Because that dobermanns are RARE and I adopted the 9 years old female pupies which have many from that ancestors very ancestral on her blood /looking. She have Arany Sarcany Darlan 4 and 5 generation back in pedigree.
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P.S. USA

because I saw you tried to discover some easterns...I recomand you to ask about NICKY and TINANTIN STEZI to URSS and about D'acciaio you can ask AIAD president Pezzano ( his bloodline carry this MtDNA) .

About HONOR GUARD dobermanns , ancestors of MUNDIAN GOX and his brother GORSIM, grand fathers of Arena , you can made some researchs in USA.
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Eastern dobermanns are losted, are or dead or mixed. Last female 13.5 years Arena was mixed and presure still don't stop.
There NO evidance of HUNDREDTH of longevive dobermanns losted in last 20 years .
The Big Breeders keep silance of genocide .
Then I have no interest to lie.

The truth is that longevive bloodlines was destroyed and because they was so stupids, destroyed exactly their anticorps and today don't exist alternative. For nobody.


T
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to USA IP 69.47.163.226

Glad that you maded some research in Furstenfeld and Weinberge , but I ask you how many Eastern dobermanns you knowed ? How much you know their genetical structure ?

How can you know the structure of Rusian Nicky , or Belvarosi (like studmale from Cobra kennel) , Kiffhauser , D'acciaio , Rob's Black Angel , Tinantin Stezi, and many others ancestors of Eastern dobermanns ?

Do you studied the genetic of Mundian Gox or Arany Sarcany Darlan , the basically studs of Romanian lines mixed with dobermanns from anterior paragraf ?

Do you knowed them 1 minute in your life ?
I think NO. An ALMOST no one of you don't knowed that great dobermanns which endure the GENOCIDE of this system .
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2011-09-08 12:52:34 ::: IP:92.40.254.54 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


basically breeders have to decide do they breed for selection .phenotype , or long life ....... .... ...breeders have to make the choice do they breed for look or to help the gene pool for longer life .....
camelot

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Camelot
Yes, the health is the mostly important thing.
You can have right in the moment when all race resources will be used, all breeders/politicianists/judges will try to solve the problem.

but NOT BEFORE !

Or..in this moment how many breeders have interest more than title on IDC ? What IDC did for dobermann breed health in last 20 years ? Who lead the race till arrived in this point ?

It is STUPID to talk about doreign infusion and to don't talk FIRST in CHANGEMENT of breeders/judges/politic.
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Hi Bitten

Well its a case of either the information is a mistake or its case it was done secretly
C
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2011-09-08 14:23:14 ::: IP:69.47.163.226 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from United States

USA - who ever you are ....

let's get things in right order -

I haven't been bragging about dogs of 15 or more years - so direct that at the person(s) who have.

I pointed you towards the information that might be found within the database of DPCA - didn't say that all and every information can be found there, nor in regard to health or cource of death.

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As for how a dog is kept, and how it's fed - yes, that might have influence on the life span, but bad genes are and will be just that - bad genes ...

Bitten
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2011-09-08 14:19:37 ::: IP:92.40.254.85 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


Hi Bitten

If blue wasn't allowed in germany you wont find in the stud books
Camelot

....

Blue wasn't banned until 1991 - and as I have checked the studbooks up to and with 1990 in regard to Kennel Nymphenburg, and there are NO records of blue puppies from that kennel = Palmer can't have gotten a blue puppy/dog from the kennel.
All blue individuals born before the bann at 01.01.1991, was allowed.

Bitten
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FINALLY SOMEONE SAID THAT IT IS IMPORTANT FOR LONG LIFE
HOW THE DOGS TREATED
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Hello Bitten,
I have checked the DPCA and there are long lived dogs but I have not seen a pattern of any lines that are better than others. I have also did some research on the Furstenfeld dogs and the Weinberge and I have not come across any of these dogs that lived 15 years and also almost none say what they died from, so how can people on here be so sure that these lines were completely healthy? Also, there has been a lot of faith put in Urbano but he has not reached the age you all tlak about and neither has Fedor and if something should happen to them as it did Pimms Number One, then what?
Strathmill Always is 16 years old,, which is the oldest Dobermann, I have heard of, maybe instead of keep living in the past we should ask the owner how she takes care of the dog. you all on here want to keep focusing on genitics and seem to disregard how some of these dogs are taken care of. like their diet, living conditions, over matings both male and female, not to mention the stress they are under going to all of these shows. I beleive this is as important if not more important, then what their lines are. You can have the healthiest dog in the world but if you do not treat it right it will still get sick, just like with human beings.
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Hi Bitten

If blue wasn't allowed in germany you wont find in the stud books
Camelot
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2011-09-08 14:06:03 ::: IP:92.40.254.85 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)

Mark ...

Please read all what I wrote ...

Bitten
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Gone through the stud books from Germany, and in regard to breedings from Kennel Nymphenburg - no puppies of the colour blue up to and with 1990 have been recorded.

Bitten
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Hi Bitten
yes Furstemfeld is there ...but it is mixed ...its not pure Furstenfeld as such anymore ... even with as you say breeders who breed for health ..if they rarely have litters ....the breed can not survive on that or just the few lines available ..
Camelot
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1: the bottleneck is already here, as 95% of all breedings are over the same families
2: outcross = open up the studbooks - might be a possibility, but no need to select the Pharao Hound, whether this is inregard to basic health or eract ears ...
3: there are breeders who concern themselves about health before anything else - these breeders do no get any cooperation, they also do not breed many litters per year, as it's next to impossible to sell offspring from such combinations, and due to that the majority within the breed of today, are frantic focused on conformation, and nothing else.
4: Lines directly back to Furstenfeld is rare, but they still exist.
5: It is possible to breed healthy and good looking dogs with high diversity, and without using the lines which have caused the bottleneck of today
6: history is the foundation of the present and the future, which is why there are made many references to breeders and breedings of the past
7: which lines are good, and which are bad - read pedigrees, check the health results, and the healthy lines will be evident, the same in regard to longevity - as for the latter, visit DPCA, they have an archive of dogs with longevity, quite intersting ...

Bitten
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basically breeders have to decide do they breed for selection .phenotype , or long life .......the 2 dont mix when it comes to breeding for a look ..the object is for the look only .........however as said its possible by introducing a new breed genetically disease free ...the gene pool opens up ..something the breed is really crying out for ....and the pharoah hound seems to be the one staring in our face ...breeders have to make the choice do they breed for look or to help the gene pool for longer life .....
camelot
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how can we give you the answer when the breed is facing whats is known as a bottle neck affect
camelot
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also due to the health issues this breed has ....and the pharoah is basically free of genetic diseases....it shouldnt be too hard to get
recognition
camelot
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usa due to the amount of inbreeding on maybe bad lines ...the new lines is still the old lines ...a few of us agree the only immunity was possibly from Herr Palmers pure breeding ....but since this is very rare and so far back and mixed ....it seems to make more sense to intro a new breed ...and i just gave you what is most properly the one that makes the most sense The Pharoah hound ...the idea that Herr Palmer played with before
Camelot
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No, offense but is any of this coversation helping others or the breed for that matter. Everyone here keeps talking about old dogs and breeders and hints towards of what is left, but I have heard no suggetions on lines or breeds that people could use. I do not see how talking about things of the past without saying what is left and not talking in code i.e 9 year old female without name or talking about dogs that live 15 years plus is helping. There is talk of breeders who will breed just for health and there is some out there, it does not take a rich person to get this done but it does take help from the people in the know to help and quit talking in codes. Why is that hte people in the know on here are scared to say what lines are good and what lines are bad?
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i think Palmers orginal idea of the Pharaoh Hound is much more interesting .....it has the ears naturally upright ....which would solve the ear problem ....its head and body is kinda similar to the dobermann ......and the beauty is its basically free of genetic diseases
camelot
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2011-09-08 11:14:24 ::: IP:92.40.253.42 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


yes sorry re-read after ..i heard iris moved to spain but not sure what year that was
c

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Iris Krummel had breedings in France and Spain, but not before after the death of Herman Palmer ...

Bitten
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yes sorry re-read after ..i heard iris moved to spain but not sure what year that was
c
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sorry yes error ..the litters of iris u meant ...not the ownership of herr palmer
c
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2011-09-08 11:03:18 ::: IP:92.40.253.12 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


Hi Bitten

I dont think you will find it in the german studbooks as Palmer couldnt register there anymore ....the person i think who made the comment knew Palmer and Iris well ...
c

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Mark

I was not referring to breedings from Palmer, as he stopped breeding in Germany in 1976 -
I was referring to, that the Kennel Nymphenburg/Iris Krummel, didn't have any blue offspring reged = the possibility of Palmer having a blue pup/dog from the Kennel Nymphenburg doesn't seem likely ...
I also said, I might be wrong = I will go through ALL the breedings of Nymphenburg to get varification.

Bitten
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2011-09-07 19:46:00 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania


I can said with certitude, the longevive Eastern dobermanns about Dr. Reinhard Haberzettl talk descend from TRUE German nucleum . Their longevity, character and looking prove that because is CLEAR that the dobermann before 1950 yeasnNOT a ill stupid dobermann with great Dane character.

Was a huge genetic differance (actual bloodlines was almost INEXISTENTE in Eastern genepool exccept Bryan Forell via Guy's Hilo )
Eastern dobermanns has medium tall, maximum 71 on males , not super chests , some time not so good paralelism but dobermanns which has Furstenfeld presance had beautiful heads , very smart and fast , super guard and natural instincts , not round or pig eyes . They was 15 years longevive.

Then with certitude the diferance is THEIR GENETIC .

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Before 1989 and in the former Easten Germany / Easten Europe - they did use Furstenfeld bred dogs. Decendants from these lines are still available, but hey are scares ...

Bitten
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Hi Bitten

I dont think you will find it in the german studbooks as Palmer couldnt register there anymore ....the person i think who made the comment knew Palmer and Iris well ...
c
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2011-09-08 10:49:04 ::: IP:204.45.133.74 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from United States


Denmark, Ok maybe you are right. But germans do not have a test yet (as I know) and 26 % is more than 0%

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Yes, 26% is more than 0% - but when a wildcard combination = none of the parents have been tested = can give a higher probability (40%+) of negative dogs compared to the pdk4 DNA test, I feel that the estimated 26% is far too low as a tool for eliminsation of this specific mutation.

See comments in Forum ..

No the German group hasn't made a final DNA test, as they are still difining it.

Bitten
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2011-09-08 09:28:38 ::: IP:213.233.85.7 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Romania


Stupid
After we almost lost the original characters (genetical traits) now remained to use other race ? How will be named this mixture ? Doberbauceron ?
In romania was borned few pup from anancestral 9 years female from eastern lines .
Why nobody nothing ask about them ? Why nobody don t want them ? Why IDC DONT DISCOVER AND DON "T PROMOTED LAST RARE BLOODLINES ?

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Why do you belive that your latest litter is rare ?

Why do you name the Beauseron as a possibility for outcoross ?

Bitten
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Denmark, Ok maybe you are right. But germans do not have a test yet (as I know) and 26 % is more than 0%
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Camelot
Furstenfeld had a blue/tan Nymphenburg female.

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Interesting statement - Going theough the German studbooks, the first litter born at Kennel Nymphenburg was 1976 - the very same year, when Furtenfeld stopped breeding in Germany ... I will look up the litters from Kennel Nymphenburg/Iris Krummel - but as far as I do remember, no blue dog have been reged from this kennel - I might be wrong, but as said, I will go through the records.

Bitten
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2011-09-08 10:06:46 ::: IP:204.45.133.74 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from United States


Romania, you are wrong. I understood very well that DCM is poligenetic. But the test made in USA resolves at least 50 % of the problems. So what's better : do nothing just guessing and presuming , or try to start from somewhere with a test with which a part of the problems can be eliminated ?

---

This statement is not overall correct - the USA DNA test for PDK4 mutation has merely an accuracy of approx 26% - see Forum entries on this topic.
The mutation found by the German group, seems to have an accuracy of 50%.
The mutation recently found by the Canadian research group seems to have an accuracy of 40%

These 3 mutations, are found on 3 different chromosomes - 5,8 and 14 - they are not directly connected, and not depending on oneanother - at least to my understanding => this gives confirmation on, that DCM is likely to be a polygenic heritage, which was already stated in the early 1980's.

So where do we go from here - only the future will be able to tell.
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Romania, you are wrong. I understood very well that DCM is poligenetic. But the test made in USA resolves at least 50 % of the problems. So what's better : do nothing just guessing and presuming , or try to start from somewhere with a test with which a part of the problems can be eliminated ?
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Usa, you don"t understood yet that DCM is poligenetical and you can not solve the problem so simple like you said ?

The situation is pathetical, from hundredths longevuve easterns dobermanns, some of them more beautiful than many today dobermanns are remained only one 9 years female with 30 years ago tipicity and breeders talk to introduce in race anorher race infusion.

Here we arrived ?
Pathetical !
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2011-09-08 05:30:25 ::: IP:66.192.118.130 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from United States


Besides looks, why are there so few outcrosses to these lines? It seems to me that this would be a logical choice, back to where it all started becuase as it has been said many, many, many times on here there is little to no choices for out cross from most dogs on this site and from all the major shows, they all have same dogs in pedigree, so excluding looks and politics, is there any other reason?

Because , like the show selected dobermans, working line dobermans were selected only regarding their temperament, breeders were not interested very much in look. To outcross with working lines will destroy a lot from the look and the breeder will have to work a lots of years to reconstruct the look. And whith what dogs to reconstruct ? Means that breeder must come back to show lines, basically to come back to the problems which determined him to make the outcross, so what he will solve ?
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One way , I think, is to make the DCM tests of the parents and also to the puppies resulted and eliminate from breeding the positive homo dogs. But let's see how many stud owners will agree to make this test ( even if the test is not 100 sure and does not eliminate therisk of DCM) if they will be asked by bitch owners
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Stupid
After we almost lost the original characters (genetical traits) now remained to use other race ? How will be named this mixture ? Doberbauceron ?
In romania was borned few pup from anancestral 9 years female from eastern lines .
Why nobody nothing ask about them ? Why nobody don t want them ? Why IDC DONT DISCOVER AND DON "T PROMOTED LAST RARE BLOODLINES ?

Succes with doberbauceron on IDC

#######

the dogs now have different names but there blood is still inbred on the problem of the past .....as gb said most prop only way forward is to use a different breed free of the problem
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it is interesting about nymphenburg thst it has thst bit extra v eichenhaim blood there ..as dona is there aswell ,,,it would seem from we know that the more v eichenhaim the more the problem ....

bmg most working lines are inbred on bingo ...who also was from chico...if combined with the modern lines it possibly means you are still distant inbreeding on the problem .....the breed is even more inbred on now than before ..as said maybe the only way was to use the immunity of furstenfeld ..but even this is now much harder due to the possibly problem lines being so inbred .....the dogs now have different names but there blood is still inbred on the problem of the past .....as gb said most prop only way forward is to use a different breed free of the problem
camelot
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Besides looks, why are there so few outcrosses to these lines? It seems to me that this would be a logical choice, back to where it all started becuase as it has been said many, many, many times on here there is little to no choices for out cross from most dogs on this site and from all the major shows, they all have same dogs in pedigree, so excluding looks and politics, is there any other reason?
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What can anyone here tell me about the german lines i.e Doberwache, Weyermuhle, Mooreiche, etc. I know they are working lines, what about health and character?

bmgillespie
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Camelot
where and whos has the good imports in the gb with good breeding blood to make a diffrence that have drive too.
rich
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Camelot

If we could get a sponsor rich enough to support a breeding programme the results could be with us in 10 years
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Yes your most probably correct gb as the breed is so inbred .....but it would mean a group getting together and saying enough is enough or a very brave breeder to show the way ,,,,but with the way the breed is going asfar as the anti crop and dock and people wanting better character it has it's advantages
C
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Camelot

The breed can get out of this mess not by researching pedigrees or extensive testing. Those avenues take too long but by outbreeding to other similar breeds who demonstate longlife and have no heart problems

Most breeders will reject the idea. BUT it is the way foward and the quickest solution
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Yes gb I know vija came to Margaret and as you said there is problems in gb .....and i also think the same as you about furstenfeld giving some immunity as his true breeding was basically free of the mess....The irony of all this is that his breeding was destroyed because of the ztp rule and because of the more perfect frankenhorst
Camelot
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I can said with certitude, the longevive Eastern dobermanns about Dr. Reinhard Haberzettl talk descend from TRUE German nucleum . Their longevity, character and looking prove that because is CLEAR that the dobermann before 1950 yeasnNOT a ill stupid dobermann with great Dane character.

Was a huge genetic differance (actual bloodlines was almost INEXISTENTE in Eastern genepool exccept Bryan Forell via Guy's Hilo )
Eastern dobermanns has medium tall, maximum 71 on males , not super chests , some time not so good paralelism but dobermanns which has Furstenfeld presance had beautiful heads , very smart and fast , super guard and natural instincts , not round or pig eyes . They was 15 years longevive.

Then with certitude the diferance is THEIR GENETIC .
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Not exactly. Today YES , it is perfect TRUE.
But 15 or 20 years ago the Eastern and Russian bloodlines was extremly longevive .

I will repeat :
"This supposes that with actual mating system spread rate of DCM is about 1.5% by year and in 2020 the prevalence will be 72%!
In words of Dr. Reinhard Haberzettl (2002) : “The Doberman was created from mixtures of various breeds and half-breeds at the end of the 19th century. This genetic variety was a great health advantage. Up to approximately 1950, there were practically no hereditary health problems, worldwide. These qualities still remained in the populations of East Germany and Eastern Europe up to the nineties”.
----------------------------
Source:
http://www.thyra.co.uk/wordpress/?p=266


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2011-09-07 18:55:57 ::: IP:213.205.196.14 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)


USA the breed is so inbreed the only difference is a name not the blood
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Also great Britain I see your point but let's say v furstenfeld was free from such problems ....is it because he didn't inbreed on frankenhorst forrell germania and Eichenhain
camelot

Camelot
Furstenfeld had a blue/tan Nymphenburg female. He said blue/tan enriches the tan and cleans the colouring and he certainly knew the Nymphenburg bloodline had problems. .. but perhaps when bred to an inbred Furstenfeld male the problem became greatly reduced.

Probably the freedom of the line is due to another aspect and the fact that he only used dogs in the breeding programme containing his own bloodline. Your own male is evidence of that, a little bit of Furstenfeld goes a long long way
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IP:89.136.57.192 ::: from Romania

I invite all world breeders to try to find the equilibrum .

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Who speaks for "equilibrium".
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Yes it's true great Britain the extent is massive especially if Also the problem lies through von Eichenhain through Hella v forrell to von germania the sire of Hella v forell is vija germania

Vilja Germania came to Margaret Bastables kennels in the UK. We know DCM is present here and maybe the cause is not be the more modern DCM known bloodlines
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Also great Britain I see your point but let's say v furstenfeld was free from such problems ....is it because he didn't inbreed on frankenhorst forrell germania and Eichenhain
camelot
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USA the breed is so inbreed the only difference is a name not the blood
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Yes it's true great Britain the extent is massive especially if Also the problem lies through von Eichenhain through Hella v forrell to von germania the sire of Hella v forell is vija germania...Chico also has vija germania ....that would mean it's coming from some frankenhorst and Chico and through American lines
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You are going backk to Forell, Franckenhorsts saying that they were a problem. ?! But if we would find in our days only in a few bloodlines these dogs, would have been the same problem ?
The same mistakes were made in past like in nowadays :using same lines in many breedings. Now it's the same situation.
Germany is right : very few or almost nobody is trying to use other lines (not siegers) when choosing a male. But how are they encouraged to make this ? Seeing that winners or class winners came from only some dogs, they can have a question in their mind : if I use that male X maybe I shall have a dog with which I shall win.
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I invite all world breeders to try to find the equilibrum .
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we, the breeders which still have mixed resistance lines , we can not endure more presure maded with INCONSTIENCE .
To continue mean final destruction for BOTH SIDES !

To continue mean final destruction for BOTH SIDES !
To continue mean final destruction for BOTH SIDES !
To continue mean final destruction for BOTH SIDES !
To continue mean final destruction for BOTH SIDES !
To continue mean final destruction for BOTH SIDES !
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last personal opinion

If in last 15 years we arrived in this grave point even we haved so numerouse clear bloodlines (for example Easterns or basically starting Italian) - I can not imaginate where will arive dobermann breed in next 15 years with this POLIGENETIC disease, without any alternative.

In my opinion , with sincere regreats, will be a desaster.
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In poligenetic diseases the genetical background make the diferance between who live and who die.
After Sonnya announcement in forum about DCM and in some facebook pages, become clear that the unique solution (the OUTCROSS) it is not possible today, because all clear lines was losted or mixed .
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Never the DCM, Cancer and other ills has not so much incidance like today .never that bloodlines had no so much density than today .
The bad new is that DCM is poligenetic for sure. Then it is not black and wite like in colors inheritance . That mean that bloodlines , without TOTAL outcross, NEVER will can stop this disease.
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Camelot

Perhaps Romania is correct in some assumptions.

Both Ebo and the Nymphenburg dogs who suffered the same fate as Ebo desecnd from Chico v Forell.

However it is hardly fair to blame any particular kennel since we know that in the 1950's dogs exported to the USA of european bloodlines found in all pedigrees worldwide died of DCM
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@ IP:89.136.57.192
"Only a mixed great female like Arena and ... one 9 years ancestral female"
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Arena ...? Full Name?
What is the name of "9 years ancestral female"?
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Right..the diferance in Eichenheinn line is the presance of Forell.
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Yes but it is different from bonni v forrell and Bryan there father is lump based more on hagenstolz blood ...and it is different from furstenfeld main matings which are based on cito and cita v furstenfeld Again to lump he didn't really inbreed on v eichenhaim
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and I saw the imense genetically presure endured by D'acciaio via Citone starting line .
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Yes but it is different from bonni v forrell and Bryan there father is lump based more on hagenstolz blood ...and it is different from furstenfeld main matings which are based on cito and cita v furstenfeld
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then I saw 3 VELLO V. FURSTENFELD and 12 Forells, 2 Franckenhorsts in first generation and 6 EICHENHAIN .
that I saw.
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yes, is true, many of the problems comed via Ebo (for example) via Eichenhein. But Eichenhein dogs genetic is based on Furstenfeld and Forell.

EBO structure

ALVA V FRANCKENHORST 2
CHICO V. FORELL 3
AMARILDA V.D. WACHENBURG 2
ODIN V FORELL 3
CITA GERMANIA 3
BRYAN V. FORELL 2
VELLO V. FURSTENFELD 3
KIRA V. ROMBERG 3
ERO V. EICHENHAIN 2
COSTA V. EICHENHAIN 2
FALKO V. HAGENSTOLZ 2
IRIS V FORELL 2
CASAR V. WEIDENECK 2
RENI GERMANIA 2
HELLA V. FORELL 2
ANDY V. EICHENHAIN 2
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Now go look at the pedigre of ebo van groote matt where some say problems came from me and tell me what you see
Camelot
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I think Romania before u place blame on v forrell it is more interesting to look at v Eichenhain Look at ero v frankenorst and Alva u see Hella v forrell but the principle inbreeding is on v Eichenhain much different from the 2 main stud dogs of v forrell bonni and Bryan v forrell. ..
Camelot
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Good question ! Reflect the reality.
After (maybe more than) 40 years of Eastern /Romanian breeding , the question is "what are these" .

All countries succed to promoted international their bloodlines . Holand, Italy, Serbians . Because was on politically TREND bloodines.

Only Easterns , respective Romanian,Czech, Poland, Hungarians losted their historically bloodlines and had not power to promoted them , even that lines haved great character and good longevity .

Today almost nothing remained. Only a mixed great female like Arena and ... one 9 years ancestral female with a 40 years ago looking which borned 4 pupies in a little town and have the will to don't died .

These are. Only these remained.
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2011-09-07 15:02:30 ::: IP:66.232.107.140 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from United States


@ IP:213.233.85.7
"Romanian bloodlines"?
What are these?
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Ero v frankenhorst carried the v Eichenhain blood
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But all furstenfeld matings did not have jago v furstEnfeld through andy v Eichenhain whose head was bad
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Von Eichenhain and v germania were 2 of the main bloodlines before v forrell
Camelot
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There was other bloodlines before the 2principle studs of forrell. Bonni v forrell and his brother bryan there was talk that maybe the problem came from v Eichenhain...which is basically furstenfeld mixed with germania...through Hellen v forrell
Camelot
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@ IP:213.233.85.7
"Romanian bloodlines"?
What are these?
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And because the last are MIXED i observed that this lines are not promoted .
This is the problem. A genetical problem. This is more important today than idc titles .
Maybe o like Athos , maybe i like Armani , maybe i like Zedor , but I enforce myself to talk against the danger which can be bringed in race by a incorect and desequilibrate using of that siegers .
I have eyes to see the beauty but i have not the right because in my public position i must to defend first the breed and second Romanian bloodlines .After that what i like and what no.
Hope i was clear.
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I have nothing personal against that bloodlines, i used them with succes for beauty , but the problem is the general Genetical desequilibrum .
In general who have beauty have not longevity, longevive lines had not so much beauty and who have both have not character .

The problem is that we risk to lost last lingevive and character lines .
I think already are losted or mixed.
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Principal They carry Forell blod and they maded actual dobermanns principal genetic.
That i said. Like or not like this is the truth.
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romania ..what are you saying that frankenhorst is to blame? there was much talk that ebo is to blame.. throuh ebo are you saying that too ,much on alva v frankenhorst is to blame?..i heard that ebo was posioned in spain
camelot
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I don"t wish to imaginate dobermann breed only with forell/frankenhorst dogs, without presance of powerfull starting bloodlines of italian dobeamns.

Yes, good point
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I don"t wish to imaginate dobermann breed only with forell/frankenhorst dogs, without presance of powerfull starting bloodlines of italian dobeamns.
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Not Gino nor Quasim are the problem of dobermamn breed . They was the best , they carry Prinzz NS and great old blood .
The real problem is hided back than first 4 generations.
That dogs genetic is based on Forell bloodline , strongly present via Frankenhorst .
Gino, Prinz , represent rare starting maternal bloodlines , fortunately mixed on that siegers.
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in the pedigrees :2004- at 4 dogs, in 2005-at 1 dog, 2006-at 3 dogs,2007- at 4 dogs, 2008-at 3 dogs, 2009-at 2 dogs, 2010-at 3 dogs, 2011-at 4 dogs you will find without exception one of these dogs Gino, Alfa Adelante, Quilam Quasim
Can we assure diversity if dogs deriving mostly from same line are promoted as IDC Sieger ?

So that means breeders are looking for a specific type of dog...
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Only these are good to become IDC siegers, or what's the point ?
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2011-09-07 07:37:18 ::: IP:87.106.61.84 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Germany


To: 2011-09-07 04:38:03 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 ::: from Romania

" and this is my dedication for their beauty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57C-SdiV9l4"

You have got the point! Beauty is not worth these sacrafices breeders do these days! First they should stop inbreeding like crazy since its a known fact that inbreeding causes the increase of genetical diseases. Second they should concentrate more breeding health and character than breeding ONLY beauty. You can have them all but most breeders dont even want that! Third they should do some scrafices and use those bloodlines that are not so popular. Everyone mixes the same lines together. I am not saying that it is bad to use these bloodlines but when noone uses anything else we loose valuable bloodlines. Where are the brave breeders who are not afraid to use a male who might be not so beautiful but who has interesting and rare pedigree and super character?

I agree totally with you.
Please verify the last IDC Siegers pedigree from 2004 till now . You will see an amazing result :
in the pedigrees :2004- at 4 dogs, in 2005-at 1 dog, 2006-at 3 dogs,2007- at 4 dogs, 2008-at 3 dogs, 2009-at 2 dogs, 2010-at 3 dogs, 2011-at 4 dogs you will find without exception one of these dogs Gino, Alfa Adelante, Quilam Quasim
Can we assure diversity if dogs deriving mostly from same line are promoted as IDC Sieger ?
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Isn't there fresh lines in east Germany?
Camelot
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Also not sure if the standard of conformation of working dogs declined from what it was they are also now much smaller in build therefore show people are going to be less likely to use ..the way forward on this will have to come from a working type breeder I think and because they also don't like change I feel it will be a stalemate ...I agree this inbreeding is not good it needs a outcrossing to break it
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Germany it works both ways where are the working type breeders who will use dogs more of beauty neither one will budge...want to lose something.....this is also why some breeders keep on inbreeding they will not give up something to improve something because there scared
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To: 2011-09-07 04:38:03 ::: IP:89.136.57.192 ::: from Romania

" and this is my dedication for their beauty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57C-SdiV9l4"

You have got the point! Beauty is not worth these sacrafices breeders do these days! First they should stop inbreeding like crazy since its a known fact that inbreeding causes the increase of genetical diseases. Second they should concentrate more breeding health and character than breeding ONLY beauty. You can have them all but most breeders dont even want that! Third they should do some scrafices and use those bloodlines that are not so popular. Everyone mixes the same lines together. I am not saying that it is bad to use these bloodlines but when noone uses anything else we loose valuable bloodlines. Where are the brave breeders who are not afraid to use a male who might be not so beautiful but who has interesting and rare pedigree and super character?
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after that...we will cry again that our breeding is like in the next video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0TBiQmXm0E&feature=player_embedded
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.........after that, that genetic pupies, because are ON TREND, will be sold in Romania to new breeders (or old breeders without character) which thinking on their empty brains that they are alfa and omega like already happened when 30 years of Eastern and Romanian breeding was destroyed .
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inbreeding on Maxter Max , centa inbreeding on Renewal.
But who care ? they will sold the pupies fast.
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and this is the futuret , they doubled , tripled...etc this genetic

http://www.dobermann-review.com/puppies_DEFG/DobergaardenForever_2011_Athos_AmazingGrace/ped.php
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and this is my dedication for their beauty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57C-SdiV9l4
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Because that I has a negative reaction about IDC results, I have nothing against winners.
But read winners pedigree to see that dogs genetic ,again and again the same !
They continue the direction like nothing happened , no one different bloodline was promoted ! that scare my.
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That is the element which concern mysef by long time, the geneical domination of that bloodlines and the high incidance of ills. No genetical alternative. This is the element which can destroy dobermann breed and we are on 1 step by this.


To: 2011-09-06 15:16:59 ::: IP:145.236.217.18 ::: from Europe

The pedigree of this dog was really the same as most of the dobermanns are these days so genetically she was like 85% of the dobermann population is today.
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