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All times are CET (Central European Time)
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2012-02-07 00:57 • IP: 188.29.129.126 • from United Kingdom
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i wonder what Herr Dobermann and the other breed creators would think to come back to germany and see there creation in the homeland of the breed ..turned into a muppet to appease people who have nothing even to do with the breed in the first ....its beyond words and an utter disgrace
c
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2012-02-07 00:25 • IP: 86.29.36.239 • from United Kingdom
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the dobermann is always a dobermann cropped or not. but uncropped is only for people which had the "eyes".
The 90 percent of people which want a dog cropped and docked doesn't undestnad if the dog is high quality, they only want the 3 cuts.
nothing more.
in belgium there ia a superb dog uncropped and undocked
BISS. WCh. MCh. ENZO VAN DE DONAUHOEVE in holland there are some amazing dogs also in france, germany not be blind.
I agree but its having freedom of choice. the choice has been taken away from some.
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2012-02-07 00:19 • IP: 204.45.133.74 • from United States
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But sometimes I am thinking, many can say that's a stupid thinking, to rennounce to FCI and DV and IDC regulations and create another club just for dobermanns if this stupid thing with ban of cropping and docking will be realised also by change of the breed standard. I do not want to compete with other breeds in shows, I do not want to have titles for my dogs winning other breeds, I just love this breed as it was created and it's a pleasure to meet people which thinks like me in shows or anywhere and to see who has a better dog as conformation or working abilities. But it is not a must to compete. Must is to save this breed by not letting it by fighting till last for the idea for how Louis Dobermann dreamed a dobermann to be.
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2012-02-06 23:58 • IP: 204.45.133.74 • from United States
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"2012-02-06 22:56 • IP: 188.215.42.217 • from Europe1 positive reactions 0 negative
USA IP: 204.45.133.74, very good post and reasoned opinion on docking and cropping. There certainly were specific reasons why the creators of this breed chose to dock and crop these dogs, one of them being the athletic look, the other the ability to hear sounds better than an uncropped dog. For a guard dog, a larger hearing angle can make the difference between life and death in a critical situation, hence the advantage of cropped ears.
However, I believe it is a pity to give up breeding these wonderful dogs based on a change of appearance and forgetting about what actually makes the dobermann so special to us which basically is temperament, devotion, working abilities.
Giving up on the breed based on these changes is like divorcing your wife after 40 years of marriage because, even though she used to be a gymnast when you married her, she gained a lot of weight and no more looks as she used to."
You are not quite right. My wife even she will be not a gymnast I hope she will not have a tail as she ages, because when I married her she didn't have one:) and hope I shall be let to go with her anywhere even she will not have a tail :)) ,even in beauty shows.
So I shall have my dobermanns till they will die without tail and ear or with tail and ear as I choosed them from puppies age. But to breed dogs is much more different from having a wife.
I hope that my child/children can choose from many many possibilities, not only from super weighted females or males , stupid also , if I could choose when I was young a smart and beautiful gymnast when I married, just to use your metaphoric example.
I shall have a dobe just for me docked and cropped, but why to breed it ?
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2012-02-06 23:42 • IP: 86.29.36.239 • from United Kingdom
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http://inside-dobermann.blogspot.com/2012/01/letter-from-bavarian-lion.html
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2012-02-06 23:24 • IP: 86.29.36.239 • from United Kingdom
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But thats just it, Germany affected us, and our Breed and it will affect you.
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2012-02-06 23:13 • IP: 86.29.97.12 • from United Kingdom
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In all honesty do we really care what Germany wants. The dog is a cropped and docked breed. End of story. If Germany wishes to change the standard to suit their own purposes please confine the changes to Germany and let the rest of the world move on
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2012-02-06 23:07 • IP: 86.29.36.239 • from United Kingdom
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When we tried to stop the ban on docking most sat back and did nothing, in Ireland last year they tried very hard but in vein.
27 European states It is possible if everyone came together and fought to reverse the ban. A team of 27 is needed one from each country. We just all need to be on the same page.
It is ridiculus having Shows all over the world having qualifies for the bigest dog show in the world DFS Crufts if the dogs that have qualified in countries where it is legal to dock & crop not being able to take part. How can you possible say its the best specimen of its bred in a particular year if not all dogs can take part.
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2012-02-06 22:56 • IP: 188.215.42.217 • from Europe
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USA IP: 204.45.133.74, very good post and reasoned opinion on docking and cropping. There certainly were specific reasons why the creators of this breed chose to dock and crop these dogs, one of them being the athletic look, the other the ability to hear sounds better than an uncropped dog. For a guard dog, a larger hearing angle can make the difference between life and death in a critical situation, hence the advantage of cropped ears.
However, I believe it is a pity to give up breeding these wonderful dogs based on a change of appearance and forgetting about what actually makes the dobermann so special to us which basically is temperament, devotion, working abilities.
Giving up on the breed based on these changes is like divorcing your wife after 40 years of marriage because, even though she used to be a gymnast when you married her, she gained a lot of weight and no more looks as she used to.
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2012-02-06 21:08 • IP: 204.45.133.74 • from United States
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"2012-02-06 12:40 • IP: 79.112.54.12 • from Romania 6 positive reactions 1 negative
I think docking should be allowed. It is done very early and there is no real pain in doing it or any other long term suffering. On the other hand, later on, the dog can injure its tail and the amputation is very traumatising and dangerous. It is a sensitive tail, hairless, thin and long and the breed is very energetic, so trauma can occur at any time."
Romania, you believe so ?! Please read the following :
"Decided to make the trip to the Netherlands on Saturday, very eventful!!! firstly the judge & steward were trying to disqualify my dogs from the ring as they were docked!!!!!!! if people are put in these positions they really should learn the rules :(((( after some discussions & various people arriving at the ring as they would not believe me that i was allowed & that docking was still allowed in France, judging continued, Assenmacher from Germany was the judge !!! Needless to say 2 German dogs turned up took both CACs CACIBs & BOB mmmmmmmmm!!!!!!! My dogs results ended up with Giada Ex2 Firenze Ex1 RCACIB Donostia Ex2 Ch Class beaten by the very inferior German female from a well known German kennel, need i say anymore !! Well done to SK Ozzy Osborne (Min Pin) the only decent result of the day RCAC RCAIB :)) Moral of this story, im finished with German judges !!!"
It is from facebook, very recent story. Now you stil believe ?!
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2012-02-06 12:40 • IP: 79.112.54.12 • from Romania
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I think docking should be allowed. It is done very early and there is no real pain in doing it or any other long term suffering. On the other hand, later on, the dog can injure its tail and the amputation is very traumatising and dangerous. It is a sensitive tail, hairless, thin and long and the breed is very energetic, so trauma can occur at any time.
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2012-02-05 21:53 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom
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its plausible ....as in any country where the ban has taken place it has affected the price of the pup ...and the desire of owning one ...i doubt very much germany gets the 1000eu like other countries do where cropping and docking is allowed ....if italy also fails to keep the docking and cropping the breed will surely go more to the east europe .....
c
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2012-02-05 21:32 • IP: 204.45.133.74 • from United States
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I have also another theory why DV wants to change standard : because german breeders have dificulties in selling their puppies, many dobermann lovers from Germany preffering to buy cropped dobermanns from outside Germany even they will not go to shows. But that microchip sticker ban for dogs from countries which are using this method is the first step to stop imports from countries which do not have crop ban, because they cannot participate on ZTP-s so they cannot be used for breeding in Germany. Second step will be changing the breed standard, without any regarding to what harm will do such move for the doberman breed. It's just a theory which I created build on the fact that a couple of years ago when I was in a dobermann club's working field in Germasny I saw from 20-30 dobermans only 1 uncropped and with tail.
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2012-02-05 21:20 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom
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no the dobermann breed was not for dog fighting ....it was bred to protect its master ,....its loyalty is as protector to his master who was of course louis dobermann .....
but still the cropped ears as said gives the alert expression ....and more business like than the long hanging ears of a hound like dog .....which many uncropped dobermanns have .....some do have the petal like ears from the terrier ...but not all ....
c
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2012-02-05 21:15 • IP: 204.45.133.74 • from United States
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I know this theory of Marshak. But it's his theory. I remain at predators, which have better hearing with erect ears
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2012-02-05 21:08 • IP: 204.45.133.74 • from United States
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And UK : Louis Doberman didn't wanted to have a dog for dog fightings ( only in this case your theory regarding cropped ears because injuries is right), but a guard dog which must had all senses , also the ability of hear, very well developed. Look what all dogs are doing with their ears when they hear something. It's a matter of acustics. They use their ears as amplifiers and their erect ears are used like waveguides and amplifiers. All wild predators have erect ears because they can hear better.
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2012-02-05 21:08 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom
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http://www.dobermann.com/marshak.htm
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2012-02-05 20:52 • IP: 204.45.133.74 • from United States
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"2012-02-05 20:27 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom 0 positive reactions 0 negative
i agree with you usa ,,,,,but on ear cropping ...ears were orginally cropped ....because they had no antibiotics if injured ...but it is thought that the breed pioneers wanted the breed to have cropped ears ...thus structured the shape of the head to go well with the ears ....also the short coat breeds suited best the docking of the tail ....you give a very good example with the Erdelyi kopo as the undocked ...all natural dobermann looks very much like that
...but yes i do believe the cropped ear dog dog look more meancing than the natural .... maybe through hollywood aswell ......if you watch boys from brazil ...the dogs look much more fericious than any german shephard on film .....always the dobermann looks more like the guard dog .....this is the image portrayed to the general public ...that created the reputation of the breed ......this reputation may have been to its negative at some point by it was gained ........but otherwise you are quite right it was its natural look it seemed to be cropped and docked ...and i agree with all your other points "
Maybe in some cases you are right , some people choosed dobermans because they saw some movies from Hollywood . But 35 years ago when I choosed the doberman to be my second dog ( I had only one dog when I was child till my first doberman ) I haven't seen any movies with dobermans. I just bought a book regarding dog breeds, I looked to all the dogs and I choosed doberman because he was presented as an athletic , smart, devoted to his owner and with great working abilities but also because I liked the athletic elegant look of it. And I am very sad that those reasonsand qualities why I choosed this breed is going to disappear :(
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2012-02-05 20:27 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom
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i agree with you usa ,,,,,but on ear cropping ...ears were orginally cropped ....because they had no antibiotics if injured ...but it is thought that the breed pioneers wanted the breed to have cropped ears ...thus structured the shape of the head to go well with the ears ....also the short coat breeds suited best the docking of the tail ....you give a very good example with the Erdelyi kopo as the undocked ...all natural dobermann looks very much like that
...but yes i do believe the cropped ear dog dog look more meancing than the natural .... maybe through hollywood aswell ......if you watch boys from brazil ...the dogs look much more fericious than any german shephard on film .....always the dobermann looks more like the guard dog .....this is the image portrayed to the general public ...that created the reputation of the breed ......this reputation may have been to its negative at some point by it was gained ........but otherwise you are quite right it was its natural look it seemed to be cropped and docked ...and i agree with all your other points
c
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2012-02-05 19:47 • IP: 204.45.133.74 • from United States
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2012-02-05 17:53 • IP: 79.1.72.100 • from Italy 0 positive reactions 0 negative
2012-02-05 17:18 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom
yes and a dobermann natural or not had always 42 theeth, the best working dogs are natural, finland germany, holland belgium, I had no idea of english dogs, I think that they are not soo good, but probably I don't know really well the situation in england.
.you think the dog looks a deterrant like that?
probaly you don't know that is not the face of a dog, like a litthe devil that make the deterrant because the most stupi dog that I have seen in all my life was a gigantic rott, stupid but really ferocious, so if you want come here and go in his home, without the owner, no problen, he is natural dog so no deterrend................but perfect as a killer machine.
me dobermann was believed to be a tax collector and a town dog officer, so in a world of ignorants he made his dog equal a devil , dark and with cropped ears, now we had the Beretta's Smith and Wesson, so please tell us a real thing, don't scamble up to the mirrors............
sorry for my english, I hope that you understand me "
Itally you are in a great error like DV was (or DV leadership was only ignorant when they didn't fight against ban cropping). First of all you are not thinking to the results of banning or breed standard changing , or you do not care and you want to be just interesting in writing on a chatboard. If you do not know what change made this law in Germany ,Holland and Itally will be with same results regarding the number of breeders, try to find. Germany after so many years didn't recome in even close situation to what was before the ban. And these are statistical facts and not supositions regarding what I want or what you want.
This ban reduced in a very high degree the number of dobermans, so what about genetical diversity ? With so many problems which our breed has ,a low genetical diversity is good or bad ?
Like in many cases stupid thinking from Germany and stupid acting from that country gave very bad results on the whole Europe, sometimes with bad results for the whole world. So if Germany falled with no fight agtainst that ban, gave other bans in other countries, because in Europe Germany must be followed, it gives the way to follow.
Regardfing ferocious look : if I follow your theory that erect eras give a ferocious look for a dogs head , that means that German Shepherd and also Farao dogs look ferocious :). You cannot understand or you do not want to see that erect ears for dobermans gives an elegant look, an athletic dog look like also the lack of tail gives to the doberman.
When somebody choosed this breed ( like in other breeds case) they did this for something , one beeing the look, other the character. The character is going to garbbage more and more, now also the look. It looks like an Erdelyi kopo with ears and tail ( go to see the FCI standard and pictures how these dogs look like).
On the other hand you think that Louis Doberman choosed the erect ear because the look or because the erect ears functionality in better hearing ? A ferocious dog must not have erect ears, so your theory is wrong.
Try to sell doberman puppies with tail , you will see how many people will want to buy or take for nothing. If you cannot give the puppies as breeder , you will renounce to breed.
God save the dobermann breed, because people with your style of thinking will not help it.
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2012-02-05 18:21 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom
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i am sure italy has good working dogs ....my 2 bitches could work from there ....and my female from tyson di campo ....would not back down so easily and she bite without fear to protect ....hard type ....she would be difficult though to subordinate
c
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2012-02-05 18:08 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom
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yes i agree with you about england ..its always had not a good chance to progress ...our old quarantine laws would leave a dog a mental and physical wreck .....and we would be sent the crap ......when our import laws did improve .....we had the docking tails stopped .....imo the breed in england has good movement ..good in rear ....but needed the strength of good heads coming from europe and stronger character .....but not sure what the situation is now with the docking ban ....most properly lots of breeders have stopped ,,,,,
i know about the character of rottweillers and yes i agree they still have character intact ....and know somebody who works dobermanns for real and has mixed to strengthen the character ....i know and have owned dobermanns who will attack for real ....but in reality always best to have a dog that looks meancing or you may be facing a lawsuit or your dog destroyed ,,,,
and you mention about a gun ...again you could find yourself in trouble ...a detterant is better a dog that looks like it will do something even if it cant ..hopeully it wouldnt have to prove different .......but for me otto geller ...other breed pioneers designed the head in such way ...it was perfect for cropped ears ....the short coat perfect for docked tails ......sorry but for me ...the lawmakers have destroyed the look....dont worry your english is fine .;) ....
c
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2012-02-05 17:53 • IP: 79.1.72.100 • from Italy
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2012-02-05 17:18 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom
yes and a dobermann natural or not had always 42 theeth, the best working dogs are natural, finland germany, holland belgium, I had no idea of english dogs, I think that they are not soo good, but probably I don't know really well the situation in england.
.you think the dog looks a deterrant like that?
probaly you don't know that is not the face of a dog, like a litthe devil that make the deterrant because the most stupi dog that I have seen in all my life was a gigantic rott, stupid but really ferocious, so if you want come here and go in his home, without the owner, no problen, he is natural dog so no deterrend................but perfect as a killer machine.
me dobermann was believed to be a tax collector and a town dog officer, so in a world of ignorants he made his dog equal a devil , dark and with cropped ears, now we had the Beretta's Smith and Wesson, so please tell us a real thing, don't scamble up to the mirrors............
sorry for my english, I hope that you understand me
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2012-02-05 17:46 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom
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out of the example u gave you tell me which looks the real dobermann...seeing u said we dont have an eye ......no disrespect ...to the sire of enzo as his sire nitro rio bianco was a real champion and producer
http://www.steinigerweg.fr/prochaineportee.htm
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2012-02-05 17:29 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom
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and sorry i dont like a dog with big tan markings ...and curved breakfast bowl shaped heads
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2012-02-05 17:24 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom
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infact of the 2 crimes against the breed the bigger is the stopping of the docking ......giving the breed that curled up thin unprotected unbrella handle worm tail is a pure mockery of the breed
c
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2012-02-05 17:18 • IP: 188.29.216.47 • from United Kingdom
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italy you obviously have the natural dobermann ...and i would guess only interested in working them ......of course coming from england i have owned uncropped ....aswell as cropped ...but the real dobermann was designed to be cropped ....infact natural ears and docked tail isnt too bad .....but the both natural ....looks a real mess ...you think the dog looks a deterrant like that?
.and it destroys the breed in the countries its not allowed ....you think its correct to defend?
its making a puppet of a breed that was designed by man ....to applease the lawmakers ..the breed was created to have looks and work ...not just for work and not just for show ....and if the law takes hold in italy it destroy the breed there also as it has in germany ......
c
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2012-02-05 17:03 • IP: 91.96.7.179 • from Germany
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Italy,
thats what I mean...
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2012-02-05 16:22 • IP: 79.1.72.100 • from Italy
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the dobermann is always a dobermann cropped or not. but uncropped is only for people which had the "eyes".
The 90 percent of people which want a dog cropped and docked doesn't undestnad if the dog is high quality, they only want the 3 cuts.
nothing more.
in belgium there ia a superb dog uncropped and undocked
BISS. WCh. MCh. ENZO VAN DE DONAUHOEVE in holland there are some amazing dogs also in france, germany not be blind.
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2012-02-05 15:59 • IP: 91.96.7.179 • from Germany
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"Adel" is not based on the size of ears or tails. And not every cropped dobermann is looking "adelig". Its a question of the complete appearance, including the course of movement!
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