Stud males over 8 years of age stil living

Unread postby jotunheim » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:00 pm

BasKal wrote:It is comfirmed enough - for me.
At least the majority of todays dobermann DCM. It is real that other breeds suffer from other types.
I suspect only that may a small portion of the DCM in dobermanns are due to a X-linked reccesive factor (dominant for boys - reccesive for girls), because a common mitochondrial line with the G Dane exists in the breed.
Anyway, this is the way I think - you can think otherwise.


Yes, we are all allowed to think what we want to .... this is true. Having said that, it has already been proven through research, that DCM within Dobermann is Autosomal = not sex related.
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Unread postby BasKal » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:14 pm

Yes, the majority of cases are autosomal dominant - this is my point of view also... There is also a morphological difference in the way the heart is affected between dobermann and other large breeds- the majority of dobs suffer a fatty infiltration way of DCM.

You misunderstood me - I propose a X-linked reccesive mode for some rare cases only. Because some rare cases of dobermann DCM are not normotypical- the damage is like in G.Danes - longer and weaker cells.

(I understand that a dominant mode of inheritance is not very good news for anyone who wants to do "fad politics" - in our case, the save the breed fad politic movement... Wich i am afraid will destroy the breed further.)

My oppinion is that we must have good genetic tests and a stright politic for matings and nothing else.
A test for the type of TTN genotype of a dog could be a good start.
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Unread postby Niro » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:37 pm

BasKal wrote:I disagree - a long lived healthy animal is always worthy. Most genetic diseases are controlled by only a couple of genes and DCM (our prime concern) looks a dominantly inherited disease - this means that ALL CARRIERS WILL DEVELOPE THE DISEASE. The "escapes" are probably the ones that DIDNT INHERIT even a single "bad" gene - probably from matings between ill heterogygots.



"real value" & "worthy" are not the same thing - a old healthy animal could have value but not "real value" as a healthy longlived animal which ALSO has longevity in their pedigree.. :wink: And even more important as a stud > does he inherit longevity and health? - for a animal in breeding the most important issue are what he gives to his offspring..

I think Bitten's definition of "what is a healthy line" in the other topic - was a very reasonable and correct definition of this matter.. :D

/T
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Unread postby BasKal » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:41 pm

A theological point of view IMHO.
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Unread postby Niro » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:19 pm

BasKal wrote:A theological point of view IMHO.


Hehe.. :wink: :D Well.. maybe so but IMO it is more than theological even a vital point what the actual dogs transmit - and from a breeders point of view it has "more flesh to the bones" if this list included studs with longevity in the pedigree aswell as being healthy & long-lived themselfes.. Not only list dogs who reach a certain age.. I stop with this - iam sure y see my point as much as i see yours.. :)

As for the non-stop debate about DCM as far as i can see from this recently study in Muenich - they suggest that as much as half of the population of Dobermanns could be carriers or are affected so certainly it is time to do something about this problem..

/T
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Unread postby Weinberge » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:11 pm

Baksal have right partial on his thinking, a longevive dog have a healtly genetical matrix.
On this theory I based my personal breeding game. That and because no other way.

But because many diseases are poligenetical , can result ill puppys (depend by second parent genetic) .

For example , remember the scandal between Remijaguare and Livonija when from 2 HD healtly dobermanns result many ill puppys.
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Unread postby BasKal » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:23 pm

Clearly the presence of polygenic and reccesive diseases, must make as to avoid inbreeding and try as diverse lines as we can. This wasnt the case till now - most breeders linebreed or inbreed heavily.

DCM is another story - the only practical way I think, is to use frozen from long lived healthy males after their death - till a genetic test is available. And to use females from 4 grandparents who didnt have DCM.But many clubs forbit the use of frozen...
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Studs over 8 years

Unread postby Dobguns » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:15 pm

My dear valencia and bascal can´t you name studs that are in your mindes the best to use to avoid DCM?
Name them by name so vereyone can benefit from your knowllage....
The best is if they are over 8 years because of the headissue..
best regards
tina strandberg
Christina Strandberg kennel Dobgun´s
www.dobguns.se
info@dobguns.se
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Unread postby Weinberge » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:01 pm

Except Jotun, Zarek Warringhoff and probable some other working Mooreiche and Bayern personal I nothing know.

That don't mean any dobermann from that working lines, because exist health problems and in that lines (some time because their imense inbreeding
coefficients because they was enforced to breed witout genetical refresh).

My infos are relative, are based from infost from a point of time. Many times , after I find more informations I was enforced to change my mind.

For moment... I don't know...but I know can be more bad . Much more. :cry:
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Unread postby jotunheim » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:00 am

Donak v.d. Sonnenleite -
Schh 2, FH2 - HD-A, phtvl/phpv clear, vWD DNA clear

further information can be found at: www.working-dog.eu
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