Euro vWD clarification please

Unread postby El-Zorab » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:23 am

double post
User avatar
El-Zorab
Junior member
Junior member
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:36 pm

Unread postby Ronindobe » Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:26 pm

Medical student huh? It shows. Good to know another "competent" professional is being groomed. :lol:

Not only are your stats wrong, but your generally mentallity is pathetic. You work to reduce genetic conditions you idiot and improve the pool.... because you CAN.
Ronindobe
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 7:29 pm
Location: Illinois, USA

Unread postby jotunheim » Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:36 pm

El-Zorab wrote:i guess that "vWD1" was not not referred to the vWD status of the dog, but the vWD-Type that was tested !

remark that there are more than 1 vWD types.

vWD type-1 is transmitted the mendel-way, autosomal dominant with different penetrance and is the vWD type that is found at our dobermann.

other breeds have also vWD but it can be vWD type-3 for instance and not every type is transmitted the same way.

regarding the fact that vWD-type 1 which is found at the dobermann has different penetrance (this means dogs can be vWD affected genetically but can have a normal coagulation and no problem in their every day life at all)
all the testing and hysteria regarding vwd, coming straigt from the USA, is really pointless.
only 5 % of the dobermann population is actually genetically affected and from those 5 % i guess maybe in worst case 1-2 % really do have a coagulation problem.

if you would test every dog used for breeding i am sure you will find quite a high number of females who are genetically affected and who gave birth to many litters without bleeding to death at all.

from my own friends i know a guy who had a VWD affected female who gave birth to 5 litters without bleeding to death at all.


IF you look at the previous entries, you will find that vWD1 has been refered to - NN/vWD1 = carrier ...

From your entry, it seems clear you have been reading the statement on "Laboklin" web site - I think you should read what VET GEN and FINNZYMES states on their web sites, especially in regard to
- which type of vWD the Dobermann can get
- how the genetic transferral of vWD actually is
and WHY - because Vet Gen was the one that found the marker, and made it possible to do a DNA test.

Also - difference in penetration is not in regard to how the vWD shows itself within the dog, but how the gene is thrown within a combination.

The problem with any test available at the present is, that none of these will tell you whether a dog that's vWD affected will become symptomatic or not.
Bitten Jönsson
jotunheim
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:02 am

Unread postby Weinberge » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:11 am

El-Zorab wrote:why does a dog lick his balls ? - because he can !

the same it is whith this test. we do it because we can (and because it helps to sell puppies to america).


The low dobermann genepool becomed day by day more little and endure the presure every day more big of lines with DCM , cancer , wobler, stomachal torsions, wrong HD, vertebral problems, missing teeths and testicles, leucemia or down imunitar system ,porcine eyes and rotwaillerian traits and character.
(all that affect our dobermanns in the last 15-20 years and now I have CLEAR examples , with names ).

What they do vWD test ?
-Because only that they can :lol:

But they can not renounce to their vanity and use in furure healtly dogs (last of them which exist) .

Then...few breeders need to start a new race nucleum, a round one(health -character-beauty). I knowed from begining that is possible to arrived in this point , but always I hoped will be possible to avoid this point.

That breeders mentality and what they do (double incests on dangerouse lines) , the first DR advertising page analyse and what happened on the last IDC (nothing happened :lol: )....said clear is no more time for delay .

Few breeders will understand what mean .
Last edited by Weinberge on Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Weinberge
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 4889
Images: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:11 pm

Unread postby Weinberge » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:50 am

Forgot

By long time I nothing heard from/about my Greec friend Baksal.
I am couriouse if he return from exotical sunny island or he brokened his fingers . Or maybe he sleep.
Wake up Baksal. :lol: :lol:
User avatar
Weinberge
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 4889
Images: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:11 pm

Unread postby El-Zorab » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:14 am

Ronindobe wrote:Medical student huh? It shows. Good to know another "competent" professional is being groomed. :lol:

Not only are your stats wrong, but your generally mentallity is pathetic. You work to reduce genetic conditions you idiot and improve the pool.... because you CAN.



meanwhile i am a doctor for a few years but i dont think that i need to justify myself in front of you and what i dont need is to be called an idiot by a person like you.

what i have learned from your post is that you dont have any behaviour and you have never learned how to talk to people.
User avatar
El-Zorab
Junior member
Junior member
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:36 pm

Unread postby El-Zorab » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:19 am

i think the breed has other problems more important than VWD.

if vWD will be in future "THE BIG CRITERIUM" on which we select, then the genetical pool will be even smaller and we will have even more problems than we have already at the moment.
User avatar
El-Zorab
Junior member
Junior member
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:36 pm

Unread postby Ronindobe » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:18 pm

Mr. "Doctor",

It's this simple, for example, if a combination of carrier vs. carrier is for some reason done [accident or professionally planned] and the result seems to be "dogs of merit", then since the test is available [and because we can] all progeny of interest are tested. Any affected dogs are written off of any breeding plan [ even if Obi Wan or Maxim ], carriers of interest matched ONLY with clear dogs, clears focused on. If a stud or dame of interest is a carrier, look at the closely matched sibs for a clear dog to use preferentially. Genetics will be extremely similar within recomb variation. See no real reduction in the pool due to selecting away from this known and specific issue.

Conversely, let's focus on DCM, which I assume even you recognize as a problem. To eliminate any links back to dogs with any rumor or diagnosed case of myopathy leaves very few if any lineage options, thanks to the mentallity of the last 20 to 30 years here in the US and in Europe. I know this because I and associates, many posting here, have and are spending hundreds of hours sifting pedigrees and cross checking any and all health information available, contacting owner/breeders, and scoring the data credibility. Internally we are arguing criteria for selection, some insisting that we eliminate any and all dogs with a hint of DCM, others being more moderate suggesting careful complimentation and "dilution". Myself, I want to pursue both avenues simultaneously, trying to create an ever cleaner pool and holding certain lines discrete. Why? Because here we agree. We can't focus on just one area and forget the others. The goal is not to have a bleeder, with bad conformation, weak character, but good cardio health. Or major faulted dog that lives to 17 years. The difference with DCM is we don't have a clear marker or path of improvement. Leaving a responsible course of action still largely a matter of debate and risk accessment. This is not the case with the, yes, less lethal but certainly undesirable heritable negative condition of vWd affected. It is possible, and in fact necessary, to prioritize and address all known issues [and you need to test to know in vWd] when making breeding selections. Easily correctable minor conformational issues can be dealt with later.

Not every dog needs or should be bred. Not every owner is capable, responsible or knowledgable enough to be breeding. Just because pups are cute and one "wants" to have a litter is not enough. This is why the human gene pool, with no logical fitness selection of mates and tendency for "accidental" procreation, is such a basic health mess. The idea of only "qualified, thoughtful" individuals breeding, if you consider it, also is somewhat gene pool limiting [unless open access to desired stock is possible]. However, I will point out that a smaller but healthier gene pool is infinitely better than large and polluted. Except that is to the people gleaning wealth from treating conditions by billable hour, and primarily commercially minded producers.

Gee, sorry for hurting your feelings. :P I apologize. I have a degree in biochemistry from a top ten university for that ciriculum and grad degrees in toxicology/pharmcology. Unless you specialize I am probably deeper in these subjects. As a grad I have had to teach people in or heading to human medicine [and vet] and was astounded and then angered to discover that altho all could think well enough to want to be a professional, about half really weren't interested enough in the material vs. a class grade to be one. Of course that doesn't mean that they can't make the min standards and finally regurgitate enough to pass the boards. I find being capable of being a doctor on paper pretty much a dime a dozen affair. So I am not rotely impressed. Hence you find in medicine the same thing as in all "professions". 20% are very good, responsible artists, continually keeping current with their field. 50% are adequate, the low B and C students, watching the clock for their green time, pointing at the 20% to justify their self image and the image of the profession. 30% shouldn't be allowed to practice, but are sheltered by the professional organizations. If you are here, it is them that drive the outlandish malpractice insurance costs, merely passed to the public. I have little to no toleration anymore for the members of your arrogant, largely self serving profession. I say this because it is living things that are receiving this professional attention and the quality of their existence is in play. Over half of our household income is generated from correcting the orthopedic folly of licensed "doctors", and we are pretty darn successful at it. Why? Because we give a damn and think out of the box. And we don't loose interest when the clock reaches a certain position. But it continues to anger me that these people have been milked of their income, endured prolonged discomfort, and sometimes been made worse by so-called mainstream "doctors". Don't become one of those. I would much rather go back to balancing, conditioning, and training athletes and fighters. Much less heart wrenching, but there are much less of them than suffering clients. As far as justifying yourself to me....you damn sure do! You came into my world and I have been an advocate for the Dobermann longer than your punk ass has been on the planet and I will call you and anyone else to task for continuing to place them in jeopardy. Problem with that? Too bad! Don't like my manner.... sorry. It would be the same in person. [Those that have met me are grinning now]. I am tired of the time wasted having to carry or walk around the lazy minded. After awhile you realize you can't get that time back, it was stolen. After another 24 years you may be tired of that too, unless you've conformed and just joined the pack as most do.

Good luck.

8)
Ronindobe
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 7:29 pm
Location: Illinois, USA

Unread postby El-Zorab » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:32 pm

thank you for your post ronin. i dont know what traumatized you so much that you hate doctors so bad but anyway have it your way. its a free world.

for someone who has a degree in biochemestry from a top 10 university your behavior and the way you talk shows me a lack of manners and some mistake in the way you were raised. yes i dont like that and if you are this way in person - man, i am deeply sorry for you.

you can use words like idiot or punk ass when you talk to your friends, your students or whoever else you want but not to me.

being a 54 year old guy doesnt give you the right to talk to anyone else the way you do.

please dont answer to this post because this are the last words i write to you. i have by far better things to do.
User avatar
El-Zorab
Junior member
Junior member
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:36 pm

Unread postby Ronindobe » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:30 pm

Good. Go get to it!
Ronindobe
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 7:29 pm
Location: Illinois, USA

Unread postby Ronindobe » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:57 am

Oh and for the rest of you, I don't hate doctors or any other professions. They are things, inanimate. I do dislike people that put on costumes and pretend to be more than they are, and insist they are due a disportional paycheck.

And to my abrupt manner in this, again a half a lifetime of cleaning up after these people has affected me. Trying to be polite and noncritical of what is almost intentional incompetence for profit and social position is not only a misplaced waste of energy, but has lead to it's current prevalence in medicine, law, and government. Can I get an Amen?

An example would be anyone whose main concern is their own ego instead of the subject at hand.

Have a nice day all.... I'm going to try to "sweeten up" :lol:

8)
Ronindobe
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 7:29 pm
Location: Illinois, USA

Unread postby Weinberge » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:50 am

My losted friend El-Zrab , do you still collect in one pedigree 5 GRAAF QUIRINUS , 13 HERTOG ALPHA , 88 OLIVE OF BAMBY'S PRIDE , 193 ODIN V FORELL , 38 DON DAYAN V FRANCKENHORST ,143 CHICO V. FORELL , 5 DEEA DOLORES V FRANCKENHORST ?
That even you always talk with me against that wrong breeding mode.

You are in Germany. In Germany still exist few last great dobermanns. Maybe not soo beautiful, but great !Why you don't used them ?

You lost your love about horses... El-Zorab....?
Poor your horses...

P.S. " Doar pestele mort se lasa dus de apa " Who said to me this ?
User avatar
Weinberge
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 4889
Images: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:11 pm

Unread postby El-Zorab » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:11 am

don't be afraid my friend my love for the breed did not change neither my love for the horses.

si mai ales nu-ti fa griji ca am si eu un ciine cu fürstenfeld in pedigree de o saptamina la mine acasa ;) e frumoasa foc micuta. o sa auzi de ea ;)

inca nu sunt mort si inca nu ma duce apa ;)))
User avatar
El-Zorab
Junior member
Junior member
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:36 pm

Unread postby anais » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:48 pm

El Zorab

you are perfectly right

the breed has more problems than VWD which is NOT a real serious problem
anais
Junior member
Junior member
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:11 am

Previous

Return to General dobermann issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron