For head's sake......

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For head's sake......

Unread postby alberto » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:11 pm

I will start from a short story.....:

a couple of years ago,in the middle of the AIAD championship in Monteluco,all of a sudden Mr. Pezzano took the microphone and,as enlighted by a ray of sun,told in front of everyone....:"ladies and gentleman,it's about 30 years that in Italy we are struggling to make understand the fact that THE BREED STARTS FROM THE HEAD....of course,when all the rest is correct....."....immediately after that,he made Citto del Diamante Nero AIAD jugendsieger...(maybe a sign of destiny??...hehehehe....!)

starting from this,put in order of liking the following heads,and add a brief comment if u like.....

- Baron Nike Renewall
- Fedor del Nasi
- Gino Gomez del Citone
- Graaf Zeppelin v Neerlands Stamm
- Citto del Diamante Nero
- Graphic Line Favorit
- Pathos delle Querce Nere

c'mon.....shoot!
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Unread postby Weinberge » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:33 pm

.....post error
Last edited by Weinberge on Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:33 pm

Mr.Pezzano WAY was wrong because FIRST dobermann need to start breeding FIRST from HEART, character and after for head. This heads cost very much dobermann breed. For this reason NEVER I WILL NOT APRECIATE Mr.Pezzano more like one good technical judge. Is my personal right. I am sorry.

I hope now, to return at normal way and ..keep and beautiful head.

About your request, my opinion..diferent style, all very good.
I ask myself if is more good to keep separately this diversity or..try to combine and fix one unique style and tipicity.

For this reason i not can put in orde this diferent tipicity but with common elements: Italian tipicity .
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Unread postby alberto » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:58 pm

Ok,Val.....we know it,and that's ok....I think everyone agrees on the fact that character and spirit is the first thing.....
but I think Pezzano,in that occasion,was talking only as an esthetical point of view.....at the same time being well aware of the main importance of brain....!
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Unread postby Weinberge » Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:00 pm

Valencia wrote:Mr.Pezzano WAY was wrong because FIRST dobermann need to start breeding FIRST from HEART, character and after for head.


For this point of view, Mr. Santini try to not make sacrifice in dobermann breed and remaning in isolation .
In my mail discussions with Mr.Santini , i think is..inloved by dobermann breed.In one mail..talk with me about Weinberge... Is one sentimental man because i sense his remembers.

In time when many other spit in my Weinbergers and line , Mr.Santini give me power with his one simply remember.

I think DN walk in a right way !
About Mr.Pezzano i preffer to not comment.
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Re: For head's sake......

Unread postby Weinberge » Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:50 pm

alberto wrote:Mr. Pezzano took the microphone and,as enlighted by a ray of sun

..............

- Baron Nike Renewall
- Fedor del Nasi
- Gino Gomez del Citone
- Graaf Zeppelin v Neerlands Stamm
- Citto del Diamante Nero
- Graphic Line Favorit
- Pathos delle Querce Nere

c'mon.....shoot!



First i already say i regreat if i destroy Mr.Pezzano lighting by sun and destiny and i not comment more.

About great Citto -not DN- i reffer at Elisir father, Elisir start one new erra , start one trinity : Citone, Renewal and Campovalano . Citone finish in my opinion with FERRO Campovalano.
For sure this Elisir brench will be remaning forever in dobermann blood and will continnue with many brench already started.

But...

I think already begin one new erra. In my(and not only my) opinion dobermann center mouve again. Where? Sure..already you know: to N-East. Like not like..in this place live BARA, sure..what remaning after one total incontrolate expansion and extinction.
I am shoked by one thing. By Russian line resistance and silent continuattion.

In my opinion BIG errors was hapened in past under IDC close eyes.

Is incredible for me mode of one total impasibility in more that 10 years when hundred and hundred by dobermanns was destroyed by this beautiful new machine in one general crazy HEAD MANIA when only HEAD AND MANDIBLE was important.
This error in my eyes will remaning impardonable.

.......
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Re: For head's sake......

Unread postby Weinberge » Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:50 pm

..............
To begin to return at title topic, in this moment exist few principal tipicity directions.
I reduce this at next 5 basic tipicity :

-Citone -in my opinion was assimilate by Campovalano and many other line. Citone pure in this moment not exist and because health reason, no suficiently power, too fine.

-Campovalano - and Ferro , remaning one strong basic point, asimilate Citone and give much power, health stable, and born one excelent Campovalano expresivity.

-Villa Castelli -unfortunately lost much in last period and need to be continuated

-Diamante -fortunately up day by day much more

-Fedor (Bara-Elixir) - one new tipicity who need to be protected , multiplied and fixed. I say Bara- Elixir because is borned between Ak YAR and Elixir Campoval via Renewal.

Not have sense to comment this basics tipicity, already was much comentated.
In my opinion this 5 basic type will combinated in future and will born maybe one final tipicity...or..who know?

In my opinion all this tipicity will be asimilate in future in East -in same mode like Italian asimilate Nederland and German lines begin with 70 years- and will born maybe one superior tipicity . Why i say this? Because dobermann make one last step to North-East and because North-Eastern lines are pressent maternal in the most pedigrees .

Is good or bad? Is good. Because 'BARA' power is and Italian power and dobermann power and have good character and health.
The interest need to be not to stop Eastern lines expansion . Need to help all Eastern lines and make one long FREE selection and not destroy line after lines like in past (in one general shame) and improve qualities generation after generation.

When the last North & Eastern dobermann will be asimilate in this global unification, then...this era will be born i hope one beautyful dobermann, healtly and ....beautiful character.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:04 pm

After all this my up argumentation , i will say and final orde but not VERTICAL ORDE . One similar (equal) order.

BARA - ELIXIR - DIAMANTE - CAMPOVALANO - VILLA CASTELLI.

:D
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Unread postby BasKal » Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:24 am

- Baron Nike Renewall (Breathtaking as a structure, unbeliavable flat scull, very long, Eyes could be darker.)From life
- Gino Gomez del Citone (almost perfect, he has slightly dommed scull)
- Fedor del Nasi (A Baron Nike look- alike, but his parallelism is not as perfect as Nike's. He has better eye color and stronger muzzle and jaws, but he also has lips, and a slightly more dommed skull.He gives an impression of great beauty and power)
- Graphic Line Favorit (Excellent expression-maby the best, and strong muzzle, somewhat short head. He has a style of no-real beauty)
- Citto del Diamante Nero (Impressive volume, length, very strong and long muzzle. The bridge of the nose is not straight, scull not flat, some lips. Important dimmentions, Hypetypical, good for breeding. I like his sister COCO more)
- Pathos delle Querce Nere (All well, quite long, but I would like more stop, better eye color, a more chiseled head in general, stronger underjaw, less lips, all them slightly - high class head anyway. I wonder if his mother was put to Victor Vito...)
- Graaf Zeppelin v Neerlands Stamm (Perfect parallels, but not flat scull. Head short and wide. I didnt like his expression in IDC video, also his eyes were not very dark.)

These are all heads of champion level. No head between them is a "Bad" head.

Pezzano was saying the same about head and type at judging seminars at 1994. The small minded who call Gino "a big female" are ussually the admirers of some anabolized brutt. They were plenty in Greece then. And Russian "type",(what type??), made them more in all europe these days.They are usually young and innexperienced. I am not refering in any particular bloodline, but when the time will come to publish my "bad head top-5), ALL will be Russian "champions".
This doesnt mean that they are not good types in Russia, far from it. Grande Vinko, Teraline, Zoosfery, and many others, have excellent dogs.
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Unread postby Camelot1 » Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:12 am

have to agree with you ...asfar as Gino ,..hes a very difficult animal to look at and fault .. very much in harmony ..his head suits his body
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Unread postby Weinberge » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:16 pm

BasKal wrote: And Russian "type",(what type??), made them more in all europe these days.They are usually young and innexperienced. I am not refering in any particular bloodline, but when the time will come to publish my "bad head top-5), ALL will be Russian "champions".


Aha...Russian type not exist, Adel Adriana and Ak Yar not exist ....?? Bara not exist ,Ami Cobra , nothing not exist ! Exist only few Italian dogs with bad heads and not very good health. This you sugest ? :D

In this case not exist and Italian type because they start with Nedeerland and German blood.
And Chenj :lol:

What you not like at Russian type ??? Have you arguments or only bla ...bla.... bla....

You say : the time will come to publish my "bad head top-5), ALL will be Russian "champions" !
I am courious to see your big Russian list !

Baksal, You will understand exist Russian type when all your dogs will be have russian pedigree :lol: .
Chess !

Sorry for off-topic.
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Unread postby BasKal » Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:09 pm

Alin READ BETTER PLEASE:

"This doesnt mean that they are not good types in Russia, far from it. Grande Vinko, Teraline, Zoosfery, and many others, have excellent dogs."

And dont write noncense. 8)
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Unread postby Weinberge » Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:12 pm

You say : And Russian "type",(what type??), made them more in all europe these days

I think you forget again and again , BARA really exist and born puppy and HIS tipicity because tipicity is not only paternal how you sugest. If you reffer only at Italian dogs from Russia or Romania or Hungary, i accept they have only one Italian tipicity.

Or..i wish for these lines best paternal Italian tipicity. Principal there are 4:

RENEWAL&CITONE - CAMPOVALANO- VILLA CASTELLI - DIAMANTE NERO

For sure, Renewal &Citone sister brench , Campovalano excelent expression and Villa Castelli dogs was and will be necessar all time,

but

between all, in my opinion and my vission , Diamante Nero have necesar elements to develop , multiply and fix already borned Adel-Adriana -Fedor tipicity because have few elements absolut necessar to corect bulk 'Quirinus heads' , errors or poor tipicity:

-long , powerfull and slim head
-large front muzzle
-flat skull
-flat masticators
-good stop
-nose-mandible line under 'strong angle'
-strong consanguin blood
-DCM free
-good genes click (i think especialy when exist and Ami Cobra line)
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Unread postby BasKal » Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:38 pm

I refered to uniformity, not quality.
Russian type doesnt exist, because russian dogs are very dissimilar between them, partly because the old blood was so lowly selected.(I refer to morphology-I dont know about character in Russia, but I suppose they were selected more for character at the time of USSR.)
I had seen very different russian dogs belonging in the same litter. For example many of my top-ugly champions have very beautiful brothers and sisters. It is the rule for countries new in breeding. There is not a "Greek" type also.
The only uniform characteristic is the try of russian breeders to produce powerfull dogs.
Only de Grande Vinko has a fixed style, because Andromeda was so powerful as a producer.

"For sure, Renewal &Citone sister brench ,"
One of the biggest noncenses ever writen. Renewal is a branch of Royal Bell. In reality almost all yugoslavian breeding is Royal bell. Altobello is somewhat different-more Campovalano. But the best Altobello female, Wild Cherry is all Royal Bell -Franckenhorst.
Citone is completelly diferent in foundations. The only common between them is that they both used Prinz. But Prinz was used by almost everyone (quite unsuccesfully-mr Marchetti in a seminar was describing Prinz as a stud failure when "A" litter were juniors...and "B" Renewal puppies... ). Prosperi used Prinz many times too.
The similarity between these Kennels (Renwal-Citone) is that they both produced paramount results of correct Type. And so, look similar. For example Baron Nike and KevinKing del Citone looked like brothers, with a slight difference:Kevin had very dark eyes.
It is very funny the statement that Citone is "assimilated". I see things the other way. All the best Campos come from "A" Citone. Also Citone is not only Gino. They are many more, females also.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:12 am

About Renewal &Citone sister brench, for sure i reffer only from Elisir Campovalano direction. Other similitude: G Citone litter result from inbreeding like B Zamolxis liter for example.
I must to accept is enforced to say 'sister brenchs' because this is true only paternal and at this side i reffer. Maternal not exist similitudes, one was Royal Bell and other was Tequila Citone.

I not reffer at other Citone litters, i reffer only at Tequila brench.
Because A and G Citone was considerated 'dangerouse' in my opinion this best Citone litters will exist only in combination and will be assimilated.
Nobody except few kennels will not make inbreeding in these litters to can talk about one continuity. What you make with Kevin or Stevinhage with Figaro are exceptions.

No noncenses in all this.
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