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Unread postby xendo » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:17 pm

wanja and killion have the same owner, dethlef köhler.
wanja was used for breeding some times (showbreeding) but the results were not what people hoped to get. workingbreeders (expect böllenruthen, kennel of mr. killmeier) tried it, the result was sufficient. sometimes wanja brought blue colour.

the problem with killian (angekört) i can´t understand. some people say, it was the brown colour. the few matings he had did also not bring the results breeders wanted to see...so both disappeared without leaving a trace of significance.

wanja and killian are alive.

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Unread postby BD » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:30 pm

Gribbon, I disagree on your position regarding Wanja... Wanja and Killijon have both fantastic characters. Killijon may probably have a "working" spirit and qualities while Wanja tends to "sporting" qualities. Killijon at 2004 IDC made the best real attack. However, they both are owned from the same person and for sure mr Kohler favorites Wanja. As for the use in breeding, Wanja was used quite a lot in North Europe, both working and show lines with fair results considering the females. North Europe has not the lead in breeding anymore. I believe that South and Eastern Europe used him not as much he deserved. I have seen & touched him in real twice, at 2000 and 2006, both times looking superb -even at his 10 years he looked like 5. My suggestion on Wanja is obvious: He concetrates both beaty, character and a pd that can be used. For me it's the BEST dobermann in life...
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Unread postby gribbon » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:02 pm

wanja the best dobermann in life?Ok what can i say?This dog in 1999 idc was out of the final 4 in champion class but next year idc sieger.Any way that is a little bit strange.Wanja is one of the last dogs bred by the great mr.V.d.Donken and his bloodline is very interesting but his sieger title is not the result of his morphological quality.Wanja was in trend during those years but no one big breeder used him.I have seen him,i also like him but in my opinion he is not the super male.Great champion but not a great sieger.Wanja is a normal,compact male of medium size with strong bones in proportion to his body,correct angulations in front and rear and with a normal head.A balanced dog and i like this characteristic but not the best.The true best dogs must have something...more than being just balanced and normal.As for character i think that his ztp result is B(that means that the dog's temperament is just acceptable to pass the ztp,not exceptional).
Dear xendo i know that both wanja and killijon are still alive :D In Greece there is a son of killijon who has an outstanding character!!One of the best i have ever seen!Unfortunately he cannot have the working career that he deserves due to a broken front leg.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:46 pm

gribbon wrote:Also he said that Vasco di casa Coppo had a great working character too!!


Yes, Vasco Di Cassa Coppo have one OZN character . Exist some descendents and from Sciarra combination , and interesant inbreeding .
Line comme from Castor Mooreiche , Kaiser Di Cassa Koppo and maternal pure Campovalano line .
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Unread postby Weinberge » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:53 pm

BD wrote: My suggestion on Wanja is obvious: He concetrates both beaty, character and a pd that can be used. For me it's the BEST dobermann in life...


Already exist Wanja & Icaro Villa Castelli amazing combination in one very good hand. Exist in one maximum posible healtly mode.
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Unread postby BasKal » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:51 pm

If Wanja isnt the best, he is very near the best specimen alive and one of the more complete specimens ever. This is true and for his father Zivago v Het Wantij.
I cannot understand why a correct dog cannot regornized as great. Is correctness a Fault? And monstrocity a good quality?.Anyway, Wanja does have some excellent progeny. The pitty is that seldom their quality is regornized by people.
As for Kiljan, in comformation had some faults like a wide scull and a narrow muzzle. Also he is short legged.His brown color was also a disatvantage regarding germany, so, he was used very little.
Both can produce good dogs, especially with modern females. But they are both out of fashion and breeders today, breed for money.
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Unread postby BasKal » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:53 pm

If Wanja isnt the best, he is very near the best specimen alive and one of the more complete specimens ever. This is true and for his father Zivago v Het Wantij.
I cannot understand why a correct dog cannot regornized as great. Is correctness a Fault? And monstrocity a good quality?.Anyway, Wanja does have some excellent progeny. The pitty is that seldom their quality is regornized by people.
As for Kiljan, in comformation had some faults like a wide scull and a narrow muzzle. Also he is short legged.His brown color was also a disatvantage regarding germany, so, he was used very little.
Both can produce good dogs, especially with modern females. But they are both out of fashion and breeders today, breed for money.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:59 pm

BasKal wrote: But they are both out of fashion and breeders today, breed for money.



Yes Baksal Yes ! Be incisive ! :lol:
I joke. I agree with you : Wanja was one good sire and for health reason not only working drives.
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Unread postby gribbon » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:13 pm

obviously i didn't say that correctness is fault and monstrocity a good quality.I said that wanja is just a normal dog not something exceptional.He has very interesting bloodline,he is still healthy and that is very important but...he is a normal dog.Nothing more,nothing less.Great dogs,really great dogs, must have something more!And i don't mean characteristics of hypertype(monsters).
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Unread postby xendo » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:19 pm

baskal, i know wanja from real life, i have seen him as a youth, with about 5 years and last year at dv-siegerschau, he visited with his owner.

from the round about 25 matings he had there are few excellent dogs, that´s true, but most descendents are average. the females he mated most were average too, some were excellent. so the total quality of his offspring is a bit more than average...one more problem was the blue colour, which sometimes appered.

wanja hisself, there you are right, is a very complete dobermann without serious faults. characterwise he is wonderful. a great dog of oldfashioned style.
if he would have produced one, only one great son for example, he would have been taken much more for breeding.
detlef hoped to rescue the van stevingage line, he did a lot of efforts with the spanish kennel de griffeu...but at the end he lost this battle.

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Unread postby xendo » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:19 pm

baskal, i know wanja from real life, i have seen him as a youth, with about 5 years and last year at dv-siegerschau, he visited with his owner.

from the round about 25 matings he had there are few excellent dogs, that´s true, but most descendents are average. the females he mated most were average too, some were excellent. so the total quality of his offspring is a bit more than average...one more problem was the blue colour, which sometimes appered.

wanja hisself, there you are right, is a very complete dobermann without serious faults. characterwise he is wonderful. a great dog of oldfashioned style.
if he would have produced one, only one great son for example, he would have been taken much more for breeding.
detlef hoped to rescue the van stevingage line, he did a lot of efforts with the spanish kennel de griffeu...but at the end he lost this battle.

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Unread postby xendo » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:20 pm

baskal, i know wanja from real life, i have seen him as a youth, with about 5 years and last year at dv-siegerschau, he visited with his owner.

from the round about 25 matings he had there are few excellent dogs, that´s true, but most descendents are average. the females he mated most were average too, some were excellent. so the total quality of his offspring is a bit more than average...one more problem was the blue colour, which sometimes appered.

wanja hisself, there you are right, is a very complete dobermann without serious faults. characterwise he is wonderful. a great dog of oldfashioned style.
if he would have produced one, only one great son for example, he would have been taken much more for breeding.
detlef hoped to rescue the van stevingage line, he did a lot of efforts with the spanish kennel de griffeu...but at the end he lost this battle.

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Unread postby BasKal » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:38 pm

Alin, allmost all breeders making big noise in internet about themselves breed for money. All Russians included. Dont be naive. They have good result, but it was bred for profit.
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Unread postby Carlos2006 » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:42 pm

xendo wrote:baskal, i know wanja from real life, i have seen him as a youth, with about 5 years and last year at dv-siegerschau, he visited with his owner.

from the round about 25 matings he had there are few excellent dogs, that´s true, but most descendents are average. the females he mated most were average too, some were excellent. so the total quality of his offspring is a bit more than average...one more problem was the blue colour, which sometimes appered.

wanja hisself, there you are right, is a very complete dobermann without serious faults. characterwise he is wonderful. a great dog of oldfashioned style.
if he would have produced one, only one great son for example, he would have been taken much more for breeding.
detlef hoped to rescue the van stevingage line, he did a lot of efforts with the spanish kennel de griffeu...but at the end he lost this battle.

xendo


Wania (with all the my respect for the dog) has been only an invention of Wiblishauer, one of the much Multi.CH created from Wiblishauer, than it is not served to nothing
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Unread postby BasKal » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:06 pm

I dont like Widli dictatorship either, but this is too much. Multi siegers usually are proposed for breeding.This is the meaning of big shows. But a judge cannot be a magician and know that this particular correct specimen he chooses will not get many like him.
My experience says that offspring in general is more remaracable for the difference they have from parents than for their resemplance to them.
My way is that every breeding is different and all posibilities open.Wanja has to offer a good comformation and health.Even now.

Xendo, I think that Wanja was used much more . I think that he has the biggest number of progeny in german stud book.
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