Working Ability With Good Conformation!

Unread postby Niro » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:49 pm

jotunheim wrote:It has nothing to do with lack of respect, but even info on the internet can be incorrect - as we attended that Körung, like the ones before and after, and I took photos of Orson at that specific Körung - he was set back, SORRY


Do you mean he got "held back" or "failed"? - are y referring to his Körung in 93 - that he never passed or are y referring to that he maybe attended for the second time and failed (i dont know if he did attend a secdond time or not - just speculating) - it seems strange this has not been correctet in the Sport and Zucht if Orson failed - but if true - thank you very much Bitten for enlighten me - i appreciate - but i like to hear some others opinion in this matter - still it does not change my opinion of Orson as a dog valuable to the breed - the topic was GOOD LOOKING Dobes with workabillity - not a rating for the best work dogs..
Niro
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:53 am
Location: Norway

Unread postby jotunheim » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:08 pm

I do not know why the result was incorrect, even people that send in material for printing makes errors. It happens and that's life.
I spoke with Roland afterwards, have the outmost respect towards Roland, and I think Orson was an excellent looking dog.
Bitten Jönsson
jotunheim
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:02 am

Unread postby Niro » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:20 pm

Just for the clarfications sake - you are refferring to the Körung in 1993 where it says he passed - or maybe he attended in 91-92 got "held back" then pased in 93..or not? I see on his owners web site also he is with the Körung -

Yes people make mistakes - but very strange that no body dont correct this info in Sport and Zucht in retrospect - for sure some more people must know this if he failed - The Sport and Zucht should be reliabel..

Well well in the spirirt of Christmas - again merry christmas - i discuss more when have time

Ciao!
Niro
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:53 am
Location: Norway

Unread postby jotunheim » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:26 pm

Niro ...

It was in 93, the same year as Hargos got his lifetime Körung - ALso, if you look closely at Sport/Zucht, you'll find that Olga has been listed 3 timers .. 1 time for lifetime, 2 times for 2 years + her lifetime and one of the ones for 2 years has the same dates.

Errors happens, no one is perfect, and especially not humans :D
Bitten Jönsson
jotunheim
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:02 am

Unread postby Weinberge » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:17 pm

CharlieChuck wrote:I also feel we are losing dogs at the sharper end of the scale.
I would say these kind of dogs are not for everybody at times can be impossible to handle.
Does anybody here know of any particular dogs or kennels who have or still breed dogs with this 'old type' character?



Clik Up / Clik down genetlemans !
That is the solution. Unfortunately...no genetical reserve.

I will do not reffer at Arrow and Arabela they and their lines must to be out when breeders discuss about true character.

Youreffer by old Norvegian from Bryan/Vello . I think you refer at Doberhill and beautiful Giselle.
Yes, the line Doberhill was great. I think they still exist in Nordic countrys.

About Jano V.Bayern yes . Bayern dogs still can offer the right genetical part to rebuild a true dobermann.

A short story about how work clik Up and clik down

At the age of 3-4 months, if somebody try to touch me , or give me the hand to say HELLO, my dog has reaction to atack him, to protect me.
In the next period , his mind understand to make diferance between friends and enemys. HE NEVER FAILED !

My male almost always run free by leash , because he has a imense stability.
In a pariod , I lived in a apartment . I have trust on my dog to send him alone in the park to make the physiological needs .
Like a paranthesis , his uncle Jack El Greco - from NUMBER ONE line) alwais run alone in the town central park . Soem time, Jack visit alone the females witch he mated before and..jump any pitch like a pussicat .

In one day I go in park with my male , free by leash .
A little child, maybe 5-6 years, come to my dog (at 5 meters by me - he nerver run more that 5-10 meters by me, and nothing stop him to follow me) .
The child come to dog and begin to hit him in head with his free hands. The dog stopped, look to this little stupid child and go afar by him, calm.
Of course I admonished the mother child because offer to his boy that education and only FORTUNA make to don't meet a stupid agresive dog .

In other day, when I passed near a drunk man, the man tried to hit me with the bottle from his hand.
But he don't finish his gesture, my dog atack him without comand.

Believe me, you don't like to see a Weinberge atack. He can accelerate like a FERRARI to the moon if needed. In rest he run clam..like a MERCEDES.

This is the clik Up and Clik down. A inteligent machine , capable to run without human command , without lost the corect direction .


P.S. I named this test 'the Park Test' and i challenged the IPO breeders to pass this NORMAL test. They laught ... but I bet..they can NOT pass this test.

(The bigest our SPECIALIST say that is incorect, and the dog must to bite the child if child atack him). :lol:

But I say to all SPECIALISTS: we are at one step to lost forever that traits which have a genetical determination !
Last edited by Weinberge on Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
Weinberge
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 4889
Images: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:11 pm

Unread postby Niro » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:05 pm

jotunheim wrote:Niro ...

It was in 93, the same year as Hargos got his lifetime Körung - ALso, if you look closely at Sport/Zucht, you'll find that Olga has been listed 3 timers .. 1 time for lifetime, 2 times for 2 years + her lifetime and one of the ones for 2 years has the same dates.

Errors happens, no one is perfect, and especially not humans :D


Neither humans or dogs are perfect true.. :wink:

My point of view are to promote really good sport dogs/and some with the more serios character but WITH goood enough conformation (which is a relatively term) - and promoting top show/conformation dogs with good enough character for dog sport.. @ some point the breeders belonging to each "camp" must "meet" and mix it up a little bit in breeding - though breeders still exist who do their best regarding both conformation and character..

But to many breed good working dogs who are out of standard in conformation and to many show-breeder dont care about the true character..

My point was not to discuss Orson R - do y know Bitten why he failed the Körung - becase of the grip/bite..? I dont think it is disputed that he was considered quite hard and dominant.. traits important.. and with his top conformation and top bloodline (coming from 2 Kör parents) he must have had something positive to offer..(his offspring prove that) - But again he is long ago and my point was to ask WHY not more breeders show interest in Bojan..? He has proven himself both in the work field and in the ring - though he (still) does not have the Körung (maybe he will attent to it next year)..
Niro
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:53 am
Location: Norway

Unread postby Weinberge » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:11 pm

Niro, you forgot a thing. Important thing.
TODAY, the MAJORITY of dobermanns are live in NORMAL familys and in actual society which condamn any agresivity .
Today we do not discuss by dogs wich live alone in paddocks. Today dobermanns are family members.

I also feel we are losing dogs at the sharper end of the scale.
I would say these kind of dogs are not for everybody at times can be impossible to handle.


A dog with too much sharpness is a catastrophe for his family.
A dog without sharpness is a catastrophe on the training field.

Before good sport dogs and IPO performance on the training fields, they
must to pass the family day by day test and the "Park Test".

The solution is ONLY ONE : CLIK UP and CLIK DOWN !
Last edited by Weinberge on Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Weinberge
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 4889
Images: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:11 pm

Unread postby Niro » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:23 pm

Rosamburg wrote:
Niro wrote:I did not see your post Charlie (i was aditing my other post above) - like i sayd there - take a look @ the new litter/mating from V Klosterkamp - this is a combination of SERIOus dogs - Boss Burghof, Ningicosan Weyermuhle, Baddhita D Champion,Brista Doberwache, Gero Moor, Question, Emir and Zorba Les Deux Peupliers, Alfred urftquelle = dogs in the division of hard, dominant dogs with some "sharpness (and aggression) :D

I forgot to mention Tairo Thor Divina Celeste - a successfull combi out of the old work lines from Germany in the mother side and Gino Gomez Citone - I dont think they lost much in the character from the mother side but improved the look - i wish more breeders could think like that - both the ones who to strongly inbreed on Weyermuhle, Mooreiche, Ellendonk and so on and the show breeders who is afraid of this old German lines cause they are not easy dogs.. I am happy to see that Nobili Nati in Italy have used Tairo Thor and also Quint Edertal.. keep up this work..


Good post. I agree, though sometimes terms can be a little differently perceived, especially hardness vs sharpness.

If you read back on hx of what I did you will see that I did exactly this introduce German working line X show lines. Unfortunately I am not sure how I will proceed from this point forward given that Hara has developed DCM. Looking at the pedigree, there was a specific reason that I attempted to move away from my bitch's pedigree and toward Bayern, Weyermuhler type working dogs.

In North America, typically working people do not look at N.American line dogs for sport. Probably 75% or more look at Euro show lines, and less than 25% look at German working lines, such as Bayern, Mooreiche, Edertal, Burgstaette, Weyermuhler, Briska, Ascomannis, Eschenbruch, etc.


Thx Rosamburg :) - yes i agree people have different definition of the actual meaning of the terms - i dont know if iam correct or not but so there is no misunderstanding i my posts this is how i see it:

Hardness = Hard dogs are the one resistant to and which dont fall apart after stressfull experience (so long as the dog actually percieve the influence as negative )- dogs have different treshold for what they percieve as pain - a dog with high treshold for pain is NOT neccecerily "hard" but can be.. The important thing is how the dog deal with negative experience AFTER submitted to it - the one who are unaffected and deal with it have "hardness"..

Aggression = A wide term covering many traits - iam above all not talking about dogs that can not tolerate stress, people etc and find the solution to be acting out with agreesive behaviour.. Above all Not talking about dogs who bite or being aggressive from FEAR

In the positive meaning or aggression i mean - dogs who have the abillity to act in the face of fear (courage) and have "active aggression" when needed out of proper confidence, have defence drive, and enjoy a fight (example with the helper)..Also some degree of "social aggression" is wanted imo.. but only in responsible hands.. This is the trait i think is soone lost in the breed it has to do with "sharpness"

Sharpness = the most confusing concept - most people refer to sharpness as how fast the dog react with aggresssion without much provocation - i think it is the best to see "sharpness" as that the dog show a active defence reaction to a "real" percieved threat..Though the original meaning of the word "mansschärfe" in German refer to sharpness (aggression) to humans..

/Niro
Niro
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:53 am
Location: Norway

Unread postby Niro » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:31 pm

Valencia wrote:Niro, you forgot a thing. Important thing.
TODAY, the MAJORITY of dobermanns are live in NORMAL familys and in actual society which condamn any agresivity .
Today we do not discuss by dogs wich live alone in paddocks. Today dobermanns are family members.

CharlieChuck wrote:I also feel we are losing dogs at the sharper end of the scale.
I would say these kind of dogs are not for everybody at times can be impossible to handle.


A dog with too much sharpness is a catastrophe for his family.
A dog without sharpness is a catastrophe on the training field.

Before good sport dogs and IPO performance on the training fields, they
must to pass the family day by day test and the "Park Test".

The solution is ONLY ONE : CLIK UP and CLIK DOWN !


See my post above Val.. Iam well aware of the fact most dogs (if not all) are members of a family (and society) but o dont see any conflict (in responsible hands) with "aggression" in one hand and a well functional family dog on the other - though there can be a challenge and require controll and obedience and responibillity..

Most of the dogs uncapable to live in normal familys dont have the correct character (exept some may be harmed in early age end threfor act out - but then they lack hardness) - nor do they have the proper aggression - mostly they are aggressive out of fear which is unwanted - a dog with aggression who are socialized properly and have confidence and strong-nerve should functional very well in both society and family.. :)

Btw about the Norwegian dogs i mentioned - yes i referred to the Doberhill dogs wich have alot of Forell and Furstenfeld blood..Dogs from Doberhill exist in many pedigrees in the Nordic countries and are generally considered good dogs in realtion to character.. :wink:
Niro
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:53 am
Location: Norway

Unread postby Weinberge » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:32 pm

Ok, de acord.
User avatar
Weinberge
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 4889
Images: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:11 pm

Unread postby CharlieChuck » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:56 pm

people sometimes take the piss out of Valencia for his CLICK UP and CLICK DOWN theory but I understand what he means. I think people who have never had a dog which has his ability dont understand.
But back to the original post is it possible that with some clever breeding we could have a line which has great beauty and top working character.
I say this because I once own a dog many years ago which was sharp, hard a real manstopper WHITHOUT ANY TRAINING!
My current dog I own a show dog is a Labrador in Dobermann clothing, looks good but doesnt have the native character of dogs from years past.
Is it took much to ask that we want a dog thats looks good enough to be IDC Seiger and also has the ultimate Dobermann character. im not saying all Dobermanns we breed from now on should be crazy but if people want a nice easy family pet there will still be plenty of them lines out there.
I ask this here becasue you need to know the dog to understand his true character and certain people here know and can comment on these dogs?
Here in the UK you cannot learn much from our breeders about the real Dobermann.

Charlie
CharlieChuck
Junior member
Junior member
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:58 pm
Location: Leeds, UK

Unread postby bmgillespie » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:45 pm

Someone has created a good combination of both, he was mentioned here and has been mentioned here before but no one seems to want to acknowledge it, his name is Bojan von Havelland, he has it all. I am not a fan of the non docked / crop dogs and I know he is a great dog by any standard and his work ability seems by all accounts to be outstanding. We need to quit talking about dogs of the past , they are gone, deal with it. Focus on what we have now. All the talk about old lines will not get us a better Doberman. There are still some good dogs living now. Why keep talking about lines that are dead or extinct, it is not going to bring them back and their genes arfe so diluted it cannot be any real comparisons and we know it, no matter how many charts, graphs and caculations on comes up with. Also, any dog is only going to be as good as his owner & trainer no mattter where or who he comes from. Merry Christmas & HAPPY NEW YEAR! :D To those who do not do these, HAPPY HOLIDAYS :lol:
User avatar
bmgillespie
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 421
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:27 pm
Location: Ohio.USA

Unread postby Lorna » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:58 am

There are potential for good health in his line - the father Nando were 12-13, Grandfather Orson > old - and a hard type of dog with Körung 1A - his father Fela were 14 or 15 years and with Körung 1A for life.. The mother side of Bojan are Isana Maerkischenland - Jivago and so on.. Top producers of show dogs with really GOOD Sport character - why is this not interesting in the Dobie world.. :roll:
[/quote]

I do not know why people in Europe don't use Bojan. Maybe there are rumors or something else unknown. We will use Bojan even though we will travel to Europe to do so. There are no comparable dogs here.
Bojan appears to have excellent health, working results and conformation.

Another male I think has excellent conformation and am still researching working ability in is Victor Vincent v.h. Wantji. This male looks like he is also the best of both worlds - working ability with conformation.
~Lorna
Incredible Dobermanns
User avatar
Lorna
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:24 am
Location: Santa Rosa, Ca. USA

Unread postby Largo » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:15 am

bmgillespie wrote:Someone has created a good combination of both, he was mentioned here and has been mentioned here before but no one seems to want to acknowledge it, his name is Bojan von Havelland, he has it all. I am not a fan of the non docked / crop dogs and I know he is a great dog by any standard and his work ability seems by all accounts to be outstanding. We need to quit talking about dogs of the past , they are gone, deal with it. Focus on what we have now. All the talk about old lines will not get us a better Doberman. There are still some good dogs living now. Why keep talking about lines that are dead or extinct, it is not going to bring them back and their genes arfe so diluted it cannot be any real comparisons and we know it, no matter how many charts, graphs and caculations on comes up with. Also, any dog is only going to be as good as his owner & trainer no mattter where or who he comes from. Merry Christmas & HAPPY NEW YEAR! :D To those who do not do these, HAPPY HOLIDAYS :lol:


True!!!
You will find here cajolery or lie
And only dog Doberman can role this ball
Or for at least to try"
User avatar
Largo
Senior member
Senior member
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:08 pm

Unread postby BasKal » Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:50 am

I strongly suggest Bojan and his brothers - also a brown dog in Italty called Argo - He is Vice AIAD sieger in morphology and also Vice AIAD working sieger.He is completelly Di Casa Coppo lines.
User avatar
BasKal
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 1934
Images: 9
Joined: Fri May 30, 2003 10:04 pm
Location: greece

PreviousNext

Return to General dobermann issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron