Working Ability With Good Conformation!

Working Ability With Good Conformation!

Unread postby CharlieChuck » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:04 pm

This subject I think is not in many breeders minds, of course we should be thinking of breeding for better health, but producing dogs with top working abilities seems less and less in show lines.
This came to my mind over the disscusion about Fedor as breeders use him alot because of his looks but he only has the IPO1 and he probably only has this because to be an IDC Sieger he has to have one. Its not only Fedor but everytime I see puppies available the sire usually only has IPO1 or nothing.

When we look back at the great studs of the past:
Gamon SchIII
Gino SchH III FH ZTP1A Angekort 1A
Jivago IPO III,ZTP 1A-V ,BN, ADpr,GEKORT for 2J 1A
And even further back in the 70's and so on it was the norm for many dogs to have top working ability.
Vello past his SchHIII and Koerung 35times!

I think we should sacrifice a bit of conformation for health and workinging abilities.
I like personally this dog:
http://www.vom-harten-kern.com/Don%20Diegoenglisch.htm
I just think at the moment breeders are concentrating so much on looks they are forgeting about health and working character.
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Re: Working Ability With Good Conformation!

Unread postby Rosamburg » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:29 pm

CharlieChuck wrote:This subject I think is not in many breeders minds, of course we should be thinking of breeding for better health, but producing dogs with top working abilities seems less and less in show lines.
This came to my mind over the disscusion about Fedor as breeders use him alot because of his looks but he only has the IPO1 and he probably only has this because to be an IDC Sieger he has to have one. Its not only Fedor but everytime I see puppies available the sire usually only has IPO1 or nothing.

When we look back at the great studs of the past:
Gamon SchIII
Gino SchH III FH ZTP1A Angekort 1A
Jivago IPO III,ZTP 1A-V ,BN, ADpr,GEKORT for 2J 1A
And even further back in the 70's and so on it was the norm for many dogs to have top working ability.
Vello past his SchHIII and Koerung 35times!

I think we should sacrifice a bit of conformation for health and workinging abilities.
I like personally this dog:
http://www.vom-harten-kern.com/Don%20Diegoenglisch.htm
I just think at the moment breeders are concentrating so much on looks they are forgeting about health and working character.


No argument from me. I think we probably need to sacrifice a LOT of conformation to achieve SOME semblance of working ability and better health. After my dog who DOES have working ability (6X Sch3 and V conformation) was diagnosed with DCM this week, I actually think we are at the point where we have to consider the need to open the registration to achieve this. Also, just because a dog has Sch3 it does not necessarily mean they were great working dogs. I have seen some real shitters that somehow "earned" a sch3 title. When you see them achieve this at multiple events, with different ETHICAL and TOUGH judges, at different club grounds, and with helpers who apply some REAL pressure on the dogs then you can say they are good working dogs.
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Unread postby Julia » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:56 pm

There are a lot of dogs with IPO 3! How many of them are really IPO 3 dogs? Not many...
IPO 3 is a real competition... not many dogs with exellent type are able to do that!
We have an IDC Sieger with IPO 3 in IDC Working Championship (Tahi-Reme Gerret) and nobody seems interested!
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:16 pm

Julia wrote:There are a lot of dogs with IPO 3! How many of them are really IPO 3 dogs? Not many...
IPO 3 is a real competition... not many dogs with exellent type are able to do that!
We have an IDC Sieger with IPO 3 in IDC Working Championship (Tahi-Reme Gerret) and nobody seems interested!


I like Gerret a lot. Here is link to one of my favorite working pictures of him.
http://www.alargobohemia.com/fotogalerie/presetace_psu/gerret/ipage00013.htm.
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Unread postby Camelot1 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:39 pm

depends on what you want from the dog ..sch , or ipo is a sport ...doesnt mean that dog will naturally protect if its parents are ipo 1, or ipo3 or not ....everyday life should tell you more, and knowing the bloodline says more ..the isolation test on strange ground with an unknown person ..and esp if never trained before can tell you something about that dog .
The dogs in the past were close to the facilities .e.g in germany , and holland .....for korung etc ..and the dogs you mentioned such as gino ..gamon..jivago are in all show lines in europe ..and is natural for vello to have taken working tests so much ...he was owned by the main working man Herr Vogel ..I think this gap in show/work is abit of a myth ..asfar as dogs from show lines can't work ...as said all those studs you mentioned in the past are inbred on the present lines in the show ring ..there is no difference . I think the main problem is most properly the owners do not care much to do the working competitions ..with there dogs .


cheers
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:35 pm

Camelot1 wrote:depends on what you want from the dog ..sch , or ipo is a sport ...doesnt mean that dog will naturally protect if its parents are ipo 1, or ipo3 or not ....everyday life should tell you more, and knowing the bloodline says more ..the isolation test on strange ground with an unknown person ..and esp if never trained before can tell you something about that dog .
The dogs in the past were close to the facilities .e.g in germany , and holland .....for korung etc ..and the dogs you mentioned such as gino ..gamon..jivago are in all show lines in europe ..and is natural for vello to have taken working tests so much ...he was owned by the main working man Herr Vogel ..I think this gap in show/work is abit of a myth ..asfar as dogs from show lines can't work ...as said all those studs you mentioned in the past are inbred on the present lines in the show ring ..there is no difference . I think the main problem is most properly the owners do not care much to do the working competitions ..with there dogs .


cheers


Very well put, I would also add the price of training is very expensive. I know to much for me in this economy. :(
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Unread postby CharlieChuck » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:17 pm

You want to try living here in the UK. My nearest club is now 90 miles away, there is a trainer who lives near me but he charges £50 per hour!

Regarding the temprament of modern dobermanns, well the ones I see here in the UK they are very unconfident in new situations or are just in play mode all the time with strangers.

We owned a female from the Tavey line around 20 years ago it took people a long time to gain her trust, when strangers were in the house she was never in play mode but would watch their every move. A couple of times when friends came to the house to collect someting and as soon as they picked up the item and started to walk out with it she would flip!

As Valencia would say she knew when to 'CLICK UP' and 'CLICK DOWN'
Its just my personal opinion from what I see is that many Dobermanns today dont have this in thir makeup.
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Unread postby Rosamburg » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Camelot1 wrote:depends on what you want from the dog ..sch , or ipo is a sport ...doesnt mean that dog will naturally protect if its parents are ipo 1, or ipo3 or not ....everyday life should tell you more, and knowing the bloodline says more ..the isolation test on strange ground with an unknown person ..and esp if never trained before can tell you something about that dog .
The dogs in the past were close to the facilities .e.g in germany , and holland .....for korung etc ..and the dogs you mentioned such as gino ..gamon..jivago are in all show lines in europe ..and is natural for vello to have taken working tests so much ...he was owned by the main working man Herr Vogel ..I think this gap in show/work is abit of a myth ..asfar as dogs from show lines can't work ...as said all those studs you mentioned in the past are inbred on the present lines in the show ring ..there is no difference . I think the main problem is most properly the owners do not care much to do the working competitions ..with there dogs .


cheers
Saying that everyday life will tell you everything is a crock. Absolute rubbish. Are you going to have someone without protection come in and whale on your dog? Are you going to have someone attack you and see if your dog bites them or runs away?

PROPER training in Schutzhund WILL tell you a hell of a lot about the dog. To quote Vogel, it takes a few years of training to understand the working ability of the dog. A REAL schutzhund trial SHOULD give us a glimpse of the dogs ability. However the way many people go about it, of course does not tell us much... This would include working the dog 100% in prey (play) drive. Cherry picking "working" trials by choosing EXTREMELY favorable conditions to trial in such as super easy/Santa Clause judges, helpers who apply absolutely no pressure and have no presence, who make prey movements when they are supposed to be testing defense drive and how the dog handles pressure, and on familiar club grounds does tell us nothing. Except perhaps that the owner (who often has just paid a professional) is probably good at marketing their dog. I will give you this, that kind of approach to Schutzhund in many situations does turn it into a farce.

I think that often these statements about schutzhund not meaning anything in terms of protection ability or somehow implying that it does not have value, has done much to undermine the ability of the dogs. I see it as usually a case of not wanting to get off your ass and make the commitment to train. If you don't have the resources near you then maybe you could make the effort to get it started yourself. This may mean traveling to seminars and learning, but every club and every region had to start somewhere. Established clubs did not drop out of the sky.

Just because the dog have the same dogs in the past pedigree it certainly does not mean they have the same working ability or drives. This would be like saying that a dog would be an IDC conformation champion just because the grandparent dogs in the pedigree are IDC champions.

Breeding dogs of proper working temperament (a dog that has a high level of prey drive, with a balance of defense drive and a nerve structure that can handle pressure) is no less an art than breeding conformation champions. You have to understand working drives of the individual dogs and be able to match them accordingly, while taking into consideration the lines they come from.

Congratulations Julia with your achievement with your dog. I have seen her litter mate work and she definitly has ability. The attitude of show line people in regards to working ability is one of the factors that has turned me off, and to turn away from show line dogs.

I also of course took into consideration that continuing to go in that direction has done nothing to make for a healthier dog. I am grateful that I made the decision to do an outcross breeding so now perhaps my dogs puppies have a chance. Because so many breeders continue to double and triple up on multiple dogs in the pedigree who died early of disease, many of our dogs are doomed from the start. Breeders who continue to cover up the death (or cause of death) of the dogs also are contributing to the demise of the Dobermann breed. At least if people who breed are not in the dark when matching pedigrees then maybe the dogs will have a chance. Unknowingly line-breeding on dogs who were diseased makes that a difficult road.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:54 pm

Rosamburg wrote: Because so many breeders continue to double and triple up on multiple dogs in the pedigree who died early of disease, many of our dogs are doomed from the start. Breeders who continue to cover up the death (or cause of death) of the dogs also are contributing to the demise of the Dobermann breed. At least if people who breed are not in the dark when matching pedigrees then maybe the dogs will have a chance. Unknowingly line-breeding on dogs who were diseased makes that a difficult road.


Then ,

WE NEED THE OFICIAL HEALTH DATABASE ! :lol:
ANY BORNED PUPPY WILL HAVE A REGISTRY EXTRAS , ANY NEW BREEDER/OWNER MUST TO KNOW ON 3 OR 4 GENERATIONS THE TRUTH .
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Unread postby Rosamburg » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:37 pm

Valencia wrote:
Rosamburg wrote: Because so many breeders continue to double and triple up on multiple dogs in the pedigree who died early of disease, many of our dogs are doomed from the start. Breeders who continue to cover up the death (or cause of death) of the dogs also are contributing to the demise of the Dobermann breed. At least if people who breed are not in the dark when matching pedigrees then maybe the dogs will have a chance. Unknowingly line-breeding on dogs who were diseased makes that a difficult road.


Then ,

WE NEED THE OFICIAL HEALTH DATABASE ! :lol:
ANY BORNED PUPPY WILL HAVE A REGISTRY EXTRAS , ANY NEW BREEDER/OWNER MUST TO KNOW ON 3 OR 4 GENERATIONS THE TRUTH .

I agree. We must also not "shoot the messenger". We cannot completely avoid health issues, especially DCM is in every line. For example, I don't think you can completely discount using a dog that say had a parent that had DCM. However it would at least be helpful to have enough knowledge to avoid line-breeding on these dogs.
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Unread postby Camelot1 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:06 pm

Hi again

You are correct somewhat what you are saying ..but there are things that can tell you ....i'm sure you have had somebody get angry infront of you ..a naturally protective dog should show some response ..over years some of mine have from a deep growl ..or deep stare etc or prepared to attack. I never said anywhere that ipo is not a god thing ..i done it with a male i bred at 14mths 15 yrs ago ...
All i said was it doesnt matter if that dog is sc3 or sch1 or has nothing mean it will attack. or vice versa will not .
For Example
my first male i trained with in man-work ...he was quoted by all as a very hard dom dog ..he was growling if anyone touched his food as a pup ..then attacking when 6mths .he was a very difficult dog to handle way too much for me ..a army trainer said to me he was one of the most dom dogs he had come across ,,he was always trying to get his eye contact when training him , as he did not like to be corrected and was looking for any weakness in him ..most properly to bite him. I noted with him the more he bit in
training in man-work the harder he would bite ...however this male in real life , while also with my female import at the time from semper scriff, and gravin hera ...was left to attack a man who had something to prove with a bottle ...she bite his arm when he tryed to smash the bottle at us ..she then swapped her bite to his chest ..then went to the groin ..where she started to rip , and growling while doing so ...it was all over in seconds ...she had no training ..while the hard dom male had been trained was pulling all the time by other arm to try to escape, and run away ..i was being pulled literally in both directions . If you do not believe this you try contact an old friend of mine called Marcel ..he trains his dogs , and owns a big security firm ..most working people in the uk wil know him
ask him about Sapphire ..he knows dogs very well .and likes man -stopping dobermanns ...he bred with my dogs daughter ..and these dogs work in security now ...the point is none are trained in sch or ipo .
I know what Vogel says ..but its also agreed a dog has it , or not ..training just lets you know maybe what your dog has , or not ..and can guide it

Also , as i said about show-work dogs ..not quite sure what you mean as most lines in europe the dogs have show, and work titles or characted tested ..if i am thinking correctly you are talking about dogs with no show titles ..just have ipo3 , or korung etc ..but as already stated on here by your fem , and Julia dog both are from more show-related kennels ..hence why i said its a myth ...if people can be bothered to train them
.that show dogs can't get these titles ..of course not all ..just a its not correct to say that all pups from the bet working dogs will produce man-stoppers or high in trial dogs
cheers
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Unread postby Julia » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:46 pm

The line of Gino Gomez is not only a show line. Gino is the sire of: Tahi-Reme Gerret, Teraline Aurora, Thairo Thor della Divina Celeste, Kartika della Via del Samurai, India v. Karpatia, Zylan Zais del Citone, Graaf Humphrey v. Neerlands Stam, Aramis Halit Pasa, Russkaja Mechta Andor Absolut, Gelo Robis Golden and many other...
These are facts!
A "working dog" is a real working dog only on the training field... not at home!
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point of view

Unread postby jotunheim » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:03 pm

You are all entitled to your opinions - I may agree to some of the things said here, but I certainly also disagree.
To mention merely 2 issues/topics i disagree on:

- open the stud books

It's in my humble opinion NOT necessary - the lines are out there, as are the dogs, but they might not be from any of the prominent breeders.

- a working dog is a real working dog on the field, not at home

Sorry - aren't we forgetting the original purpose of the breed Dobermann.
Bitten Jönsson
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Unread postby Camelot1 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:05 pm

again words being put in my mouth ..but sorry Julia where did i say Gino ..did not have work titles ...I explained that most show related dogs in europe are show/work ....and is a myth that they can not obtain sch or ipo titles if they wanted as your dog proves it ...but yes citone is a kennel more related to show than work in the truer sense ...or do you think different ?
This is why I said Rosenburg needs to make clear what he calls working lines ..because it is yes much different in the usa and uk ..where there is pure show lines only .
If we want to talk about pure working lines in europe then we need to be talking about them only .
A true working is one only on the training field? who told you this ? what about ones in security ? or active service?
and quitely rightly as Bitten says what were they originally intented for
cheers
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Unread postby Lorna » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:28 pm

Julia wrote:There are a lot of dogs with IPO 3! How many of them are really IPO 3 dogs? Not many...
IPO 3 is a real competition... not many dogs with exellent type are able to do that!
We have an IDC Sieger with IPO 3 in IDC Working Championship (Tahi-Reme Gerret) and nobody seems interested!


I love our Gerret puppy and Gerret's sister, Gloria is the best working dog we have owned to date - she is also Seigerin 2 years in a row here in the USA and SchH III 6 times. These dogs are beautiful, but also excellent sport dogs. I think you will see our Gerret puppy as SchH 3 in a few years. :)

I don't believe that a dog must have less than excellent conformation to work and vice versa. A good dog is a good dog. The working lines of today all seem to go back to dogs who were both beauty and working champions as far as I can tell. You don't see that as much today, people seem to choose one over the other. Maybe that is why there is now a division.
Unfortunately, we don't know whether line breeding or out crossing is the best thing to do and we will never know until there is a genetic marker for every disease that kills our dogs. So I do not believe that one is better than the other and I think we must still use each to bring the best qualities we want in our dobes.
Personally, I wish more people would test and tell on thyroid issues. We seem to only focus on the DCM. I believe there is more serious thyroid disease than we know and there seems to be a relation to thyroid health and heart health. Hopefully, research will tell us more in the coming years.
~Lorna
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