Working Ability With Good Conformation!

Unread postby Rosamburg » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:43 am

Niro wrote:
Niro wrote:I forgot to mention Tairo Thor Divina Celeste - a successfull combi out of the old work lines from Germany in the mother side and Gino Gomez Citone - I dont think they lost much in the character from the mother side but improved the look - i wish more breeders could think like that - both the ones who to strongly inbreed on Weyermuhle, Mooreiche, Ellendonk and so on and the show breeders who is afraid of this old German lines cause they are not easy dogs.. I am happy to see that Nobili Nati in Italy have used Tairo Thor and also Quint Edertal.. keep up this work..



Vid of the Koerung of Tairo Thor :D - looks good and very good drive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37WT5Qdeg9k

Happy easter all Dobermann-lovers :)

/Niro
You're kidding right? The dog misses damn near every bite, especially the long bites. If this is considered acceptable our breed is really in deep shit....

As far as that goes, I went back and looked at some other Korung video's. Many of the "famous" dogs are doing flybys. Also some of what is supposed to be pressure is sideways movement, not direct attacks at the handler. This is prey movement and not a threat. Good lord...
Rosamburg
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:33 am
Location: Bellingham, WA USA

Unread postby Niro » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:24 pm

Rosamburg wrote:
Niro wrote:
Niro wrote:Vid of the Koerung of Tairo Thor :D - looks good and very good drive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37WT5Qdeg9k

Happy easter all Dobermann-lovers :)

/Niro
You're kidding right? The dog misses damn near every bite, especially the long bites. If this is considered acceptable our breed is really in deep shit....

As far as that goes, I went back and looked at some other Korung video's. Many of the "famous" dogs are doing flybys. Also some of what is supposed to be pressure is sideways movement, not direct attacks at the handler. This is prey movement and not a threat. Good lord...


Hehe.. :wink: Actually iam not kidding! - It is both acceptable and even respectable to pass the Koer twice (and for life) :D

Remember i said good drive NOT good bite

- But i se y point and generally i agree to your views. Thats why i engage in this discussion - i want to put focus @ this problem/challenge.. To many dogs miss the sleeve - but to be fair to the dogs - the "helper" are making it difficult for the (to some more than others) Very often he take a step to the side after the dog are "flying in the air" - and the "helper" pull the arm away when the dog bite or before he bite - as in contradiction to what they do in the ZTP and most IPO trials (at least the very few i have seen) There the "helpers" often stay passive with the "arm/target" and make it easier for the dog..

As for Tairo Thor goes - he did not miss the bite in the ZTP (got 1A) and in most the IPO trials he also have a firm bite without missing.. I actually look upon Tairo Thor as a step forward (regarding breeding) cause he mix "traditional German work-line" X Top the producing lines of Gino (top morphology with good character) - Tairo Thor are not flawless and there are many more correct/beatiful dogs than him - but not many Koer-dogs(or top work-dogs) look better.. :wink:

In VPG 111 he got the points 98-80-97, In IPO111 100-82-96 :D

/Niro
Niro
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:53 am
Location: Norway

Unread postby Niro » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:46 pm

Rosamburg wrote: If this is considered acceptable our breed is really in deep shit....

Also some of what is supposed to be pressure is sideways movement, not direct attacks at the handler. This is prey movement and not a threat. Good lord...


"In deep shit" are maybe a overstatement - but i agree the problem must be adressed and put in to focus - in 2007 the "helper" made it a little more difficult than some of the others i have seen - anyhow it is a fact that way too many dogs failed that year.

Out of 8 dogs who tried to pass the ZVA - only 2 got A (they had firm bites/grip in first attempt. 3 got B (meaning they missed the sleeve but made it in sec attempt) and 2 dogs failed

Of the 20 dogs who attend for the first time in Koerung - 9 dogs got "delay" = did not pass and allowed to try 1 more time later - meaning they did not bite at all - at least 2 of these dogs are dogs with 96-100 points in "manwork" in IPO111 10 dogs got B only 1 dog with A

If one look @ results in other Koerungs there are pariticipants @ IDC World CH.ship who got "delay" or fail. Even Mona Edertal the World CH and DV workCH got B in Koerung (look @ other vids i upload in Y-tube) Nobody (sane person) look upon Mona as a bad work dog. In that shade of light - Tairo Thor's Koer or accomplishment are acceptable :wink:

So if not "in deep shit" as y say about our breed - imo at least this should be @ focus...

/Niro
Niro
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:53 am
Location: Norway

Unread postby Weinberge » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:51 am

20 years ago, my dog from Avatar , was a OZN (UFO, ALIEN) capable to do incredible things.
He has more beautiful and head tipicity more corect like many today 'working' dogs selected with trainers, fully by titles. :lol:
Little long in body, medium bones , strong chest ,(Wello Furstenfeld structure and tipicity) he was like a panther.
I never touch the 'LIMIT ' sensation near him. Capable to learn in one minute every thing.
He has pride, not a robo-dobe, he like action not stupid repetition.

Capable to jump incredible obstacles, capable to up in the trees.

Beacuse i lived one period in a apartment, some time i leave him to go in park alone and he alwais return alone.
This is the ' park test' .Make that with yours champions or IPO dog and bye bye champion :lol: :lol: :lol:

His clik-up clik down work perfectly. Capable to enter in 'guard' mode in 1 second, capable to play with a children in next second and capable to defend and atack in next second.
His brain work like a machine.

The dog of my life, with a incredible genetical structure basssed on Weinberge, D'accacio via Frida Santa Barbara (starting Citone bloodline base) , American true Warlok via Honor Guard (incest genetical purity) , Guy's Hilo, Kiffhauser and Russian Nicky .
A longevive genetics, unfortunatelky losted in favor of dogs with big heads but empty .

P.S. I read on that chatboard , Furstenfeld breeder/dogs was eliminated by system because they wasn't soo valuable for work. :lol:
A bad joke.

P.S.2 When Germany do that, in my opinion this is the starting point when Germany lost the international game. And Romania too. Unfortunately for dobermann race.
User avatar
Weinberge
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 4889
Images: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:11 pm

Unread postby bmgillespie » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:00 pm

Niro wrote:
Rosamburg wrote:
Niro wrote:
Niro wrote:Vid of the Koerung of Tairo Thor :D - looks good and very good drive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37WT5Qdeg9k

Happy easter all Dobermann-lovers :)

/Niro
You're kidding right? The dog misses damn near every bite, especially the long bites. If this is considered acceptable our breed is really in deep shit....

As far as that goes, I went back and looked at some other Korung video's. Many of the "famous" dogs are doing flybys. Also some of what is supposed to be pressure is sideways movement, not direct attacks at the handler. This is prey movement and not a threat. Good lord...


Hehe.. :wink: Actually iam not kidding! - It is both acceptable and even respectable to pass the Koer twice (and for life) :D

Remember i said good drive NOT good bite

- But i se y point and generally i agree to your views. Thats why i engage in this discussion - i want to put focus @ this problem/challenge.. To many dogs miss the sleeve - but to be fair to the dogs - the "helper" are making it difficult for the (to some more than others) Very often he take a step to the side after the dog are "flying in the air" - and the "helper" pull the arm away when the dog bite or before he bite - as in contradiction to what they do in the ZTP and most IPO trials (at least the very few i have seen) There the "helpers" often stay passive with the "arm/target" and make it easier for the dog..

As for Tairo Thor goes - he did not miss the bite in the ZTP (got 1A) and in most the IPO trials he also have a firm bite without missing.. I actually look upon Tairo Thor as a step forward (regarding breeding) cause he mix "traditional German work-line" X Top the producing lines of Gino (top morphology with good character) - Tairo Thor are not flawless and there are many more correct/beatiful dogs than him - but not many Koer-dogs(or top work-dogs) look better.. :wink:

In VPG 111 he got the points 98-80-97, In IPO111 100-82-96 :D

/Niro


I see what you are talking about, when you say the Helper moves to the side. I was watching Yankee vom Klingbach video of Korung and helper did the same. I am not blaming helper because this dog is coming like a truck :D but Yankee bit and held on. He is also a very good looking dog that I like better than Tairo. I believe there are more like him but people stick with big name dogs. I plan to use him to be father of my first litter with my Citone through Zordon and Nitro through Echo female. I think this will be a great combination for health/character/work and conformation. He is very well tested in all areas and is a good looking dog.
User avatar
bmgillespie
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:27 pm
Location: Ohio.USA

Unread postby Weinberge » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:16 pm

Yankee is breeded by a German judge but his line is not exactly German. Like a paranthesis, NEVER he will have again ocasion to judge again one my dog from German Weinberge via Romanian line - how long they will be in my hand we don't need their Judgement.

About his bloodline genetic :
Visan lived between 1997-2003( 6 years).
Medina Rauberhohle 1998-2005 (7 years)
Alfa Adelante 1997-2000 (3 years)
Vaya V Franckenhorst 1991-1998 (7 years).

You ask me my opinion few days ago about your female mating but I don't responded yet , because is yours decision , not my.
About Argo,few years ago I receive recoamandeds about Argo from a Italian friend. That happeneed before Argo win something important. Argo is a ..racket and have hight working qualities.

In my opinion, searching a special genetical structure, over Citone , best genetic are Diamante dogs.
Is your choice not my.
Last edited by Weinberge on Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Weinberge
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 4889
Images: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:11 pm

Unread postby bmgillespie » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:30 pm

Valencia wrote:Yankee is breeded by a German judge(he NEVER will have ocasion again to judge one my dog ) but his line is not exactly German.
Visal lived between 1997-2003( 6 years).
Medina Rauberhohle 1998-2005 (7 years)
Alfa Adelante 1997-2000 (3 years)
Vaya V Franckenhorst 1991-1998 (7 years).


I had been made aware of what you pointed out (thank you,this is the kind of information I look for) and it concerns me but all lines seem to have problem dogs in them as you say, no metter what it is russian roulette but there are going to have to be some chances taken to keep the working character in our dogs. He has had all his health test and his working ability speaks for itself both by people I talked to and he has video of his performances. I am also open to other suggestions. There is another dog I like he goes by "Argo" who is a very good looking dog that I have been told has excellent character and good working ability.
User avatar
bmgillespie
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:27 pm
Location: Ohio.USA

Unread postby Weinberge » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:32 pm

but all lines seem to have problem dogs in them as you say, no metter what it is russian roulette


Then succes . Is your choice.
User avatar
Weinberge
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 4889
Images: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:11 pm

Unread postby bmgillespie » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:47 pm

Valencia wrote:
but all lines seem to have problem dogs in them as you say, no metter what it is russian roulette


Then succes . Is your choice.

You also :D
User avatar
bmgillespie
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:27 pm
Location: Ohio.USA

Unread postby Niro » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:04 pm

bmgillespie wrote:I see what you are talking about, when you say the Helper moves to the side. I was watching Yankee vom Klingbach video of Korung and helper did the same. I am not blaming helper because this dog is coming like a truck :D but Yankee bit and held on. He is also a very good looking dog that I like better than Tairo. I believe there are more like him but people stick with big name dogs. I plan to use him to be father of my first litter with my Citone through Zordon and Nitro through Echo female. I think this will be a great combination for health/character/work and conformation. He is very well tested in all areas and is a good looking dog.


Yes i agree on Yankee - seems like a good dog and did a very good distance attrack in the Koer, but take a look again @ his video - there is a big difference in the how the "helper" approach the dogs (Yankee & Tairo Thor)

The helper made it more easy for Yankee than the helper did for Tairo Thor (Exept in Tairo T first Koerung when the helper come from the blind -then TT had a firm grip) But in 2007 (Tairo's ZVA) the helper moved more towards the dogs (aggressively) he pull his arm back hard and take a step to the side - In the Koer of Yankee the "helper" is waiting more passive without running toward the dog (threat) and he hold his arm quite calm/passive -TT has pass the Koer twice (for life) Yankee has passed so far 1 time (2 years) iam not conviced he will get A in the ZVA also - at least not if he meet the same helper as TT did (2007) - but thats only speculation from me..dont take it to serious :wink:

Can be coincidence or just the difference in how the different "helpers" work - but take this in consideration before making conclusions about the 2 dogs. Also one can not ignore the fact that it may be politics in the Koer's also - i dont intend to dis-credit Yankee but he has a well-known and respected "handler"/trainer" as owner & a well-known special judge as a breeder - but can be a coincidence why the helpers seems to give some dogs a "hard-time" and some an easier bite..

My point is in breeding it is most important what a male-dog gives to his offspring not his own achievements. Imo Tairo Thor has in his pedigree more health potential(he is out-cross) and a stronger genetic base in the work-character of the dogs in his pedigree (especially his mother's side)

Also iam not a fan of Yankees head-type - to much scull in relation to the muzzle (should be stronger muzzle) The head are rounded and slightly non parralell. Tairo Thor has a better wedge shape and flat scull - and quite ok muzzle - at least the proportions are much better.

But good luck if y decide to breed him

/Niro
Niro
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:53 am
Location: Norway

Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:22 pm

Thairo Thor is based paternal on Gino and maternal on some German lines, three time in longevive ALI V. LANGENHORST and two time in 11 years JOCKEL V. MAHUBA and 4 time in Bingo Elendonk.
Thairo Thor is a beautiful dobermann used in BÖLLENRUTHEN (Mr.Rudi Killmaier ) , HEILIGENWALD ,NORDSTERN ,SICKINGERBURG ,NOBILI NATI kennels.

The helper actions during dog atack is without importance . A good dobermann atack in any circumstance.
The rest are excuses.
User avatar
Weinberge
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 4889
Images: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:11 pm

Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:37 pm

Regarding the presented video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37WT5Qdeg9k ) , in obedience, Thor run without focusing to his handler and he failed second atack.
He pass relative nervouse between mans group , even the handler try to focused the dog on him.
Anyway, is a good dog.


I am not a admirer of Klingbach genetically breeding (and he is not a VON Weinberge admirer :lol: ) but in Koerung video, Yankee run more focused , stable on nervs. The 3-th atack was excelent even the helper make a step back , the dog atack strong in my opinion. He remaining sticked by helper even inertial force was imense.

His clik down don't work so good, he don't renounce from atack when his handler command that.
Yankee is hard on atack. His hair is RAISED UP on his back when atack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjCfoBXW ... re=related
User avatar
Weinberge
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 4889
Images: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:11 pm

Unread postby bmgillespie » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:42 pm

Thank you Niro and Valencia for your insight, I appreciate it and will take all in consideration.
User avatar
bmgillespie
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:27 pm
Location: Ohio.USA

Unread postby bmgillespie » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:01 pm

My point is in breeding it is most important what a male-dog gives to his offspring not his own achievements. Imo Tairo Thor has in his pedigree more health potential(he is out-cross) and a stronger genetic base in the work-character of the dogs in his pedigree (especially his mother's side)

Also iam not a fan of Yankees head-type - to much scull in relation to the muzzle (should be stronger muzzle) The head are rounded and slightly non parralell. Tairo Thor has a better wedge shape and flat scull - and quite ok muzzle - at least the proportions are much better.

But good luck if y decide to breed him

/Niro

I agree on what you have said here especially that THOR has better head but at least in pictures I like YANKEE body better, I think he is more built for speed and long attack. I would like to see better pictures of head of Yankee, I so far cannot find a good front view and for me it seems that dogs without crop always seem to have rounder skulls.

I have not considered using THOR, I think with my feamle already a 2-3 on GINO is enough, though she is also a 3-3 on Nitro also, I may have to take a longer look at another I like named ARGO. Also, Valencia do you know of any good work dogs from DN. I do not care so much about show side but Work and Character and of course health.
User avatar
bmgillespie
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:27 pm
Location: Ohio.USA

Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:25 pm

Bmgsmile, if you thinking you will use a working dog over show line and you will obtain a true working line ..you are afar by truth.
Sure, to use IPO dogs is important but not suficiently.
What is named 'working' line can be CATASTROPHAL for a normal handler or family .A dog must have a imense adaptability in any situation, in family, with your cildrens visitors, in society and after that on working fields.
Then..the Big Champions before to pass ZTP and Korung must to pass the ..Park & Family test :lol:
After that, he must be a OZN (UFO) on the working field.

For that, a dobermann must to have a special intimal genetical structure.

Regarding your question , from my knowledge, Furstenfeld dobermanns has super-abilities and represent the bigest important genetical key , even I read on chatboard, Furstenfeld breeder was eliminated because he don't accept political selection way.(still exist mans which know what happened ,the cameleon Carlos is one of them - Ciao Carlos, I know you are here and wait :lol: ! ).

Then , if a breeder don't play the rules with his dogs, don't mean automatically he is a ignorant breeder. More ignorant are the mans which believe in selection with trainer or if a IPO title confer automatically character superiority for any dobermann.
Still I believe , the genetically special structure (unfortunately losted because show lines dominance) have the bigest importance on our dobermanns character/working abilities.
User avatar
Weinberge
Esteemed member
Esteemed member
 
Posts: 4889
Images: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:11 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General dobermann issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest