Save the Dobermann breed! Your help is needed now!!

Save the Dobermann breed! Your help is needed now!!

Unread postby ins0mnia » Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:14 pm

No one gives a shit here, I'm removing the post.
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Unread postby jotunheim » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:19 pm

Ragnerock has started, Bifrost trembles, though Heimdall is fighting bravely, in his attempt to protect and prevent the annihilation of our race, he will not be able to overcome the power of the trolls without outside help.
Our race is close to destruction and extermination - which future lays ahead of us?
Spred the word..., have people join - the Dobermann needs the support from all over the world.

Save the Dobermann:

link: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= ... 329&ref=mf
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Unread postby Weinberge » Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:56 am

Maybe is good to make a REAL registrated International Organisation not online petitions....
We can develop a DATABASE based on documents approved by a commitee . All of you know today what happened when private DVIN database shut down . That must to avoid to happened again. We can not construct years by work database and in one single day to shut down !

The dobermann database must in DOBERMANNRACE PROPERTY and must be secured .Today it is not so hard to offer online update (program and data) for any member / solicitant. Already we do that here and work !

The problem remaining health database because actual, majority of breeders keep secret the death reasons of their dogs and is impossible somebody to assum that without suficiently proofs.
But we can calculate THE DOG AGE and use that in the LONGEVITY certified ! In case of accident, the owner can show a oficial dead certified.

Then, even we can not stop the LIES and IRESPONSABILITY IN BREEDING, we can actionate INVERSE and we can develop a European "Certified of Longevity " and certified with Diplomas.

Finally the scope is the colaboration with any National/International organisation like a special function organ .

We can organize shows and working exams / demonstrations in colaboration with acteditated Judges and organisations.

We can do a individual site and we can colaborate with actual sites.

We can promote bloodlines and breeding mode according with FCI BREEDING STRATEGY.
We can do many missing things and today many things can be maded online .

I think the interest is common, even still exist forces and swears against any breeding alternative.
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Unread postby Ronindobe » Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:16 pm

OK MOHICAN! So I see that we now are singing the same song. No matter if your Toronto transplant is not in the choir. He perfers to play with himself anyway and has little to offer at this time.
Already a informal group is forming, owners/some breeders. An international crowd. You know some already. The potentials are great. The work difficult and complex. Steps forward, steps forward.... it is the only direction. Avanti!

So yes we must look to at least four areas immediately:
1. The database [complete info and certified] ... one basis for use you have already been providing... thank you
2. Supporting the search for genetic markers that are predictive of DCM by raising/locating research funds, supplying tissue and DNA samples, and networking with any existing or past research groups. Some of the networking is starting....
3. Organization of a private coop directed breeding program designed to protect any lines of "purity" if identified [the ingredients] and build towards a healthier genetic base with continued attention to character. Of course the politics will be a problem here... but sincere people will have to surmount this.
4. Genebanking. Both semen and egg harvesting. If longevity is a goal [ and it is for me] it would be nice to be able to play on after the full story of a dog is finally known.
And of course there are other things as well....

I dream too, V. All good that has ever been done was started from the mind of a dreamer. It is sincere crazy bastards like you that power dreams to reality. Păstraţi stantare, m-am întors dumneavoastră.

Join the FB page Bitten mentions.

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Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:40 am

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Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:48 pm

Here is the opinion of Ayman on Facebook .
I am couriouse if he have right in what he said.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

In the 1950s, and 60s the Doberman was known as a healthy, vital breed, without serious and widespread genetic problems. The expected lifespan was about 15 years, believe it or not, many of today's breeders find it ethical to admit that the average life of a Dobermann can be 7 years!

When health is not the primary or secondary goal a breeder is effectively breeding against health. This is exactly what "show" breeders do, more titles, more "cute" puppies to sell and more turnover since Dobies die early. And YES it is happening in your country too, that VAST majority of today's breeders are like this.

Right now, more than ever, genetic diseases are so common in the breed due to inbreeding that does not take in consideration genetic disorders and health issues.

The situation right now is that there are no healthy bloodlines left, there are extremely few breeders that have been focusing on health rather that mass selling "show" puppies, and we are risking that in few years from now we can just forget about a Dobermann that makes it to more than 7 years. This is the reality and the biggest fear is that we're too late to do anything about it.

It is now that we should draw the line! It is NOW we should stand up and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Remember it is *us* the owners the FCI, IDC and local clubs make a living from, so we *can* change the situation by showing that we want our Dobies to have a healthy life and live as long as possible with us! It is time to give some love back to the breed that have been giving us endless love and joy for so many decades!

Healthy bloodlines are almost lost due to bad inbreeding programs, the situation is almost irreversible, so we have to act NOW before it's too late.

So please do invite every single person on your list by clicking on the "Invite people to join" under the main group photo, or send a personal message with the link to the group to everyone on your list. It is so important that we reach at least 5000 members before we send our petition so we can be taken seriously!

Thank you much once again for your support! God bless you all! And sorry for my long messages ;)


The original message here http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=1 ... &topic=176
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Unread postby Weinberge » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:05 am

UAU !

Over 1200 new members sign in less by 1 month against Actual Breeding System !
I think the REALITY and perception of dobermann lovers are very different by fotos from "for sale" advertising !
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Unread postby Weinberge » Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:30 pm

Here the opinion of simply dobermann lovers regarding actual breeding way :
The target is 10.000 signatures , already exist 2200 signatures .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvpABWdnj8M
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Unread postby Sonia Dobe » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:09 am

Eloquent video and great initiative. Congratulations

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The Major Histocompatibility Complex (MHC) in Dobermann.

Unread postby Sonia Dobe » Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:04 pm

Diseases associated
Many of the most common diseases in dogs have an immune or autoimmune component, including many types of cancer (prostate cancer, breast cancer, no-Hodking lymphoma, leukemya, etc), rheumatoid arthritis, hypothyroidism, lupus erythematosus, myasthenia gravis, diabetes, pemphigus vulgaris, Addison's disease, atopic dermatitis, mangue, haemolytic anaemia, leishmaniosis seceptibility, linked severe combined immunodeficiency syndrome, von Willebrand’s disease, narcolepsy, etc. Drugs or vaccines can trigger autoimmune diseases, and that immune response is partially influenced by the genetic background of the subject.

How does the immune system?
The respose of the inmune system can be summarized in the figure below:

Image

The proteins encoded by the MHC are expressed on the surface of cells and display both self antigens (peptide fragments from the cell itself) and nonself antigens as fragments of invading microorganisms, to a type of lymphocytes called T cell, through specific proteins receptors (TCR) that has the capacity to kill or coordinate the killing of pathogens in infected or malfunctioning cells.

The immune system has another and equally important method for identifying an antigen: B lymphocytes called B cells with their membrane bound antibodies, also known as B cell receptors (BCR). However, whereas B cells can bind to antigens without much outside help, but the T cells require "presentation" of the antigen through the help of MHC.

Autoimmunity
These are the genes that mark virtually all body cells to help the immune system distinguish itself from foreign invaders such as bacteria or viruses. These genes are critical for immune system to differentiate yourself from foreign objects, and for displaying foreign antigens to your immune system. Autoimmune diseases arise from an overactive immune response of the body against substances and tissues normally present in the body. The immune system mistakes some part of the body as a pathogen and attacks it.

The Genetic of MHC

In heterozygous individuals MHC genes are expressed in codominant, so that alleles inherited from both parents have an equivalent effects.

The genetic component of immunity may be especially important in purebred dogs that have a restricted gene pool. The biggest damage caused by inbreeding is an inevitable reduction in the effectiveness of the immune system. Each gene has an unusually large number of alleles (alternate forms of a gene that produce alternate forms of the protein). As a result, in a normal situation of hazard matting it is very rare for two individuals to have the same set of MHC molecules.

Only for the three genes of exon 2 of canine MHC class II (DLA-II): DRB1 (102 alleles), DQA1 (26 alleles) and DQB1 (67 alleles) are 11,036,376 possible genotypes for a heterozygous individual and only 1,379,547 genotypes for a homozygous individual.

The genes of the canine MHC
The major histocompatibility complex (MHC) is the most gene-dense region of the mammalian genome contains genes that encoded proteins expressed on the surface of cells and display both self antigens (peptide fragments from the cell itself) and nonself antigens (e.g., fragments of invading microorganisms) to the T lymphocytes that has the capacity to kill or coordinate the killing of pathogens in infected or malfunctioning cells.
In the canine MHC, called dog leukocyte antigen (DLA) located mainly in the pericentromeric region of the canine 12 chromosome (a minor portion of DLA-I is located in the subtelomeric region of the 38 chromosome) we can distinguish three major areas:

1. DLA class I: Encode membrane proteins (glycoproteines) of almost every cell in an organism. They present antigen fragments to cytotoxic T-cells via the CD8+ receptor on the cytotoxic T-cells.

2. DLA class II: Encode membrane proteins (glycoproteines) on antigen-presenting cells (APC: macrophages, dendritic cells, B lymphocytes). APC present antigen fragments to T-helper cells by binding to the receptor CD4+on the T-helper cells.

Image

3. DLA class III: Encode proteins related to the immune system, such as complement proteins or tumour necrosis factor (TNF) and others none related with the immune response. They have a function very different from that of class I and class II.

A scheme of DLA genes, alleles and functions are in the figure below:

Image

B and T cells and Genetic diversity

Antibodies and TCR specific receptors are similar both in their chemical details of specific antigen recognition. When B and T cells develop, their genomes become modified until the cell can produce one specific type of antibody or TCR specific receptor. If we had a different gene for each antibody our entire genome would be taken up by antibody genes. Nature resolves this apparent contradiction enabling the DNA rearrangement and other mutations in the genome of these types of cells and a small number of genes can recombine to generate multitudes of possible antibodies or TCR specific receptors (VDJ recombination) that are necessary for the recognition of diverse antigens from bacterial, viral, and parasitic invaders, and from dysfunctional cells such as tumor cells.

For example, by a simplified calculation, a DNA chain with 6 gene segments, each of which can be rearranged in 10 different ways (in a real case are many more). These six segments produce:
10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 1 million of different antibodies.
A heterozygous dog can produce 2 millions of antibodies and a homozygous dog for these genes only half (1 million).

Loss of alleles is a common consequence of endogamy. If by a repeated use of inbreeding it loss 1 of the initial 6 gene segments, there is a reduction in the production of antibodies (or TCR specific receptors) to only 100.000 antibodies (loss of 900.000 antibodies).

In an endogamic dog the chromosomes have identical gene segments with respect to immune system cells. When this occurs, the animal begins to lose its ability to fight certain diseases.

Genetic scent signals

Nature has created a special protection against dangerous reduction of genetic variation in the MHC gene system. Again the solution is brilliantly simple. The genes of the MHC system take part in the production of the scent substances called pheromones. The pheromones are important sexual signals and make it possible for animals to "smell" part of the genetic set up of the MHC genes carried by a possible mating partner.
It is important to accept when the bitches distinctly signal that they do not accept a male. The females know better than the breeder if the male carries MHC genes which are favourable for her progeny. Forced mating is an effective way to violate one of the most important protections of genetic variability.

What is the situation in Dobermann?

In the MHC Class II genes has been a wide variation between breeds but a slight variation of haplotypes within each breed (Kennedy et al., Tissue Antigens 2002 59: 194–204). This study include 82 breeds and 886 genotyped dogs (25 Dobermanns) and authors compare the number of alleles at the alleles frequency and diversity for the locus DLA II -DRB1, DLA II -DQA1 For locus DLA II -DRB1, the Dobermann is the breed with a smaller number of alleles (only 2 of 30 possible alleles) and frequency of one allelle (DLA-DRB1-006) is nearly homozygous (97.5%), the bigger allele frequency of any allele in the nine analyzed pure breeds. For locus DLA II -DQA1 is the second breed, after Poodle, with minor diversity (4 of 17 possible alleles) but the allele DLA II -DQA1-00401 has the higher frequency (85%) between all alleles and breeds in locus DLA II -DQA1.

Dobermann is predisposed for many types of cancer: lymphoproliferative diseases (no-Hodking and leukaemia) (Modiano et al., Cancer Res 2005; 65: (13). July 1, 2005), osteosarcoma (Terracini et al., The Veterinary Journal, 11998, 156, 31-39 ), mammary and prostate cancer (Cadieu & Ostrander, Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 2007; 16, 11, 2181-2183), melanoma …..

Cancer risk is associated with the loss of heterozygosity in the MHC, particularity in the DLA-II involved in the polymorphisms of the T-helper cells. In a study about genetic of hepatitis in 40 Dutch Dobermanns (Mandinguers 2005, Insights in the pathogenesis of Dobermann hepatitis, Thesis Univ. Utrech, p.188), DNA sequencing of the DLA-II genes: DRB1, DQA1 and DQB1, showed the haplotypes distribution of the table below:

Image

89% of the studied Dobermanns had the same haplotype!! Inappropriate MHC class II expression in hepatocytes and mononuclear cell infiltration suggests an autoimmune nature for chronic hepatitis in Dobermans.

Dobermann and English springer spaniel are the breed with most high risk for mammary cancer (Egenvall et al. Prev Vet Med 2005; 69:109–27). In a study about Biochemical Markers and Genetic Risk Factors in Canine Tumors (Rivera, 2010, Doctoral Thesis, Uppsala University, p.48), author has sequenced the same DLA-II genes and he found a statistically significant protective effect for breast cancer in dogs (355 dogs: German Shepherds, English Springer Spaniels, Dobermanns and Boxers) carrying the haplotype:
DLA-II: DRB1-00101/DQA1-00201/DQB1-01303 .
The results indicate also that the DRB1 and DQA1 loci are the major contributors to the negative association with breast cancer and the allele DQA1-00201 is a main contributor to the breast cancer resistance.

Look now to the last table of the work of Mandinguers with 40 Dutch Dobermanns. Major haplotype (89%) for DLA-II genes is DRB1-00601/ DQA1-00401/DQB1-01303. Was the allele DQA1-00201, the major contributor to the breast cancer resistence? Lost.

In dogs, hormonal cancers as prostate cancer are rare. Some breeds of dog seem to be at a higher risk for the disease, such as the Bouvier de Flanders, Dobermann, Shetland sheepdogs, and the Norwegian Elkhound, specially in castrated males (Cadieu & Ostrander, Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 2007; 16, 11, p2181).

Relatively shorter lengths of the polymorphic polyglutamine repeat-1 (CAG-1) of the androgen receptor gene have been associated with an increased risk of prostate cancer. A high percentage (64.5%) of the shortest haplotype 10/11 was found in the Doberman (Chen-Li Lai at al. J Vet Intern Med 2008; 22:1380-1384)

Hypothyroidism which showed an association of the disease with a haplotype carrying DLA class II allele DQA1-00101, (Kennedy at al. Tissue Antigens 2006: 67: 53–6). The average frequency in Dobermann haplotypes for risk allele in Dobermann is 20% and it’s one of the most risk breed (Angles et al. Diversity of DLA class II alleles in 25 dog breeds Tissue Antigens 2005: 66: 173–184). MHC haplotype found in association with hypothyroid disease in Dobermans, it is unlikely that the same rare haplotype will be found to be associated with hypothyroid disease in other dog breeds (Kennedy et al., 2006Tissue Antigens 67, 53–56). Obviously the rare haplotype as breed disease characteristic it is the result of the endogamic practices in the breeding.

Doberman is reported with Golden Retriever, Dalmatian and Dachshund as greater risk breeds for the development of skin disease (Zur et al. 2002; Veterinary Dermatology, 13, 89–102).

In a review of immunologic diseases of the dog, Pedersen (Veterinary Immunology and Immunopathology 69 (1999) 251-342), Dobermann breed is predisposed for acquired myasthenia gravis, Bullous pemphigoid, Systemic lupus erythematosus, hypothyroidism, chronic active hepatitis, myelomas and cryptococcal infections.

Immune mediated hemolytic anemia secondary to sulphonamide antibiotics administration has been reported in Doberman pinscher dogs, as part of an allergic drug reaction complex, involving both Types II and III hypersensitivity reactions (Giger et al. J AmVet Med Assoc 1985; 186: 479-483).

Dobermann is a breed of risk with the Rottweiler for canine parvovirus enteritis (Glickman et al., Journal of American Veterinary Medical Association, v.187, n.6, p.589-94, 1985).


Why we must limit the number of litters sired by a male?
The effective size of the population is important in relation to accumulation of inbreeding in a population and as evaluation of genetic diversity.
Calculations formulas are:
Image

For instance, a simulation for a six generation population with a normal progression: 10, 80, 120, 150, 170 y 230 (N=760) individuals with only 5% of males participate in the configuration of the next generation and an average endogamic coefficient of F=0,10. The Ne would be:

Image
Simulation demonstrate that the asymmetric distribution of reproductive population between males and females (top sire syndrome), it’s the main effect on the Ne reduction.

The level of “top sire syndrome” in Dobermann is so high that in a study of the diversity of the Y chromosome, Doberman has a diversity of 0!! (a single haplotype H7 for all 17 dogs of the sample of dogs at least unrelated in the first generation) (Bannasch at. al., 2005. Mammalian Genome, Volume 16, 273–280).

Comment:
The verdict of the facts is more powerful than the eloquence of the views. Individual efforts are laudable but it is impossible to overcome this situation without a collective effort. This also poses an ethical dilemma, but Genetics can not resolve what Ethics is not able to discern.
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:07 pm

Hello Sonia,
Excelent information. I took this quote out of it "Drugs or vaccines can trigger autoimmune diseases, and that immune response is partially influenced by the genetic background of the subject". I have long believed tghat we give our dogs way to many drugs. Growing up we had many dogs of all type live well over 12 years. SOme were pure bred and soe were not but one thing they all had in common is that they did not get a lot of shots. Most only had rabie shots, people could not afford to take their dog to the vet for every little shot. Now a days they won't you to get your dog a shot seems like every month. I have stop doing this becuase as the article states I beleive this contibutes to dogs sickness. In, fact I personally do not take a lot of medicine or shots because I believe it causes more problems than it helps. Keep up the good work and sharing of information.
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Unread postby BasKal » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:13 pm

Sonia, I cannot agree more for the first part - very good illustration of the importance to maintain heterozygosity in the breed, regarding the autoimmune system.
Congrats.

Valencia - every breeder who practiced close inbreeding contributed to this. Palmer may is one of the biggest "sinners", since he not only practished close inbreeding, but he also made inbreeding fashionable.

The genetic situation described - if it is real, and I believe it is- cannot be reversed by people pretending that 5 generation "outcross" matings are real outcrosses, or with shouts that the 2% (LOL), of "our" pedigree is "different" because is "old Carpathian" or "old Chinese" or whatever... (in reality noone can know what exactly allele was inherited in the immune system level, without a genetic test ).

The breed needs a real outcross - to another breed wich still has the most important of the lost alleles or even to crossbreds between suitable breeds.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:34 pm

BasKal wrote:
Valencia - every breeder who practiced close inbreeding contributed to this. Palmer may is one of the biggest "sinners", since he not only practished close inbreeding, but also he made inbreeding fashionable.



Yes, he keep his bloodline very good. Fortunately for dobermann breed .
But from his breeding was borned in general longevive dobermanns.This is the differance . The inbreeding on ill bloodlines fix and multiply exactly the problem.
Our race endure a imense geneticall problem because " 5 generation "outcross" matings " are NOT "real outcrosses " . The actual genepool is the same.

We really have a BIG problem.
I am enforced to said, if we will don't find geneticall resources inside our race , the future breeders WILL BE ENFORCED TO OPEN THE RACE AND SACRIFICE RACE PURITY USSING A FOREIGN RACE to REPAIR THE HEALTH DESTRUCTION ! That will bring other big problems...we must to avoid to arrived in this critic point .

I recomand to be USED EVERY pure and bredable bloodline which have correct tipicity and character from any country ! ( which STILL exist in different countrys ).
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Unread postby BasKal » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:43 pm

Inbreeding practises do damage in the genetic diversity - regardless if the sort term results are good or long lived.
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Re: The Major Histocompatibility Complex (MHC) in Dobermann.

Unread postby Weinberge » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:06 am

Sonia Dobe wrote:Nature has created a special protection against dangerous reduction of genetic variation in the MHC gene system. Again the solution is brilliantly simple. The genes of the MHC system take part in the production of the scent substances called pheromones. The pheromones are important sexual signals and make it possible for animals to "smell" part of the genetic set up of the MHC genes carried by a possible mating partner.
It is important to accept when the bitches distinctly signal that they do not accept a male. The females know better than the breeder if the male carries MHC genes which are favourable for her progeny. Forced mating is an effective way to violate one of the most important protections of genetic variability.



:lol: Great !
Then....I do not wrong when I based the matings on the females acception and always I dam the VIOL forced mating . I think we must to return on NATURAL on all what mean dobermann breeding : fooding, mating , their life .
The actual breeding way and viols transform dobermanns in libelulas .
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