Save the Dobermann breed! Your help is needed now!!

Unread postby jotunheim » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:57 am

[quote="BasKal"]
Valencia - every breeder who practiced close inbreeding contributed to this. Palmer may is one of the biggest "sinners", since he not only practished close inbreeding, but he also made inbreeding fashionable.
quote]

I have now for so many years been breeding on and back to Fürstenfeld, and I have not had any of the health problems. As far as the information I have on dogs from Fürstenfeld, they just didn't have the described health problems.
Yes, Palmer bred very tight, made several incest breedings - but it seems to me, that he bred on overall healthy lines/dogs.
He did NOT make inbreeding fashionalble - the people who thought they could make breedings semilar to those of Fürstenfeld did that, and their basic breeding material was of a different combination compared to Fürstenfeld - which can also be seen in the lines of today, where CRAZY inbreeding and now also for generations is occuring. Sorry to say this, these breeders still haven't the ability to do this, compared to Palmer.
The breeders prior to Palmer bred even more closely - but due to other reasons ...
I have said this for years - do not attempt incest or strong linebreeding if your breeding foudations is not overall healthy, and have been so for generations, and even then, think twiece, as it takes knowledge to make such attempts. Not only in regard to the dogs or their emidiate lineage, but also in regard to knowlegde of semilar combinations, littermates etc. and for no less than 13 generations.
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Unread postby jotunheim » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:12 pm

BasKal wrote:The breed needs a real outcross - to another breed wich still has the most important of the lost alleles or even to crossbreds between suitable breeds.


I disagree ... what the breed needs is:

- breed within the present standard
- breed for health and long levity
- stop using "fashion" dogs of the present
- start using less known lines, which have the qualities according to the standard
- start using combinations with proper diversity
- don't produce, but breed for the future and preservation of the breed

and the list could be made even longer
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Unread postby Weinberge » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:56 pm

:smt023
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Unread postby BasKal » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:03 pm

OK, live your illusion... Maybe Furstenfeld lines didnt have so much the DCM problem, but the homogenising of the genepool of the breed regarding the immune system (something that eventualy has the potential to jeopardise the whole breed), has its roots also in furstenfeld breeding. The furstenfeld line is an influential one genetically.
Also, he is a paradigmatic breedr and as such, his practices influenced the practice of others - with the results we have now, regarding the immune system.

Jotunheim, you wrote what I wrote (about Palmer making inbreeding fashionable) in other words :

"...the people who thought they could make breedings semilar to those of Fürstenfeld did that, and their basic breeding material was of a different combination compared to Fürstenfeld - which can also be seen in the lines of today, where CRAZY inbreeding and now also for generations is occuring. Sorry to say this, these breeders still haven't the ability to do this, compared to Palmer. "

Every time I asked as a young fancier, (when I was young in the breed offcourse), some breeder about his inbreeding practices - he told me, about Palmer and how succesfull inbreeding - linebreeding can be...
:roll:

Anyway, I dont pretend that I am going to try to "save" anything. I will only retain my lines for me and nothing else.

My dear sirs - when alleles nessecary to protect the animals from cancer for example- like the one described- are MISSING from the breed genepool, only outbreeding practice can get them back. Anything within the breed cannot solve this situation. I understand that this is a very difficult dessision - and I am happy that I will not be me the one who must take it.
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:45 am

I have been paying very close attention to all of the health information and discussions about the Dobes health and the lines. I have to say, How we know things are not getting better? We have lost some big name dogs but it kind of reminds me of an airplane trash, more people die in car crashes but when a plane crashes it is big news. I think we should continue our efforts but not condem our dogs just yet. If we are only going by top studs, we have more than a few getting up in age and are good producers ( Time will tell). I am not talking about 15 to 17 years becuase I do not feel that is resonable as an average by any standard and I do not beleive even in the past no line had those kind of results. Not saying that a few dogs did not live that long because there are still a few doing it to this day. I also feel we should quit worring completely about a particular line and start focusing on long lived dogs. They obviously had somrthing good in them or the lack of bad genes that allowed them to live that long and if they did not inherit it then they will have off spring that did not inherit it. I beleive the real problem is that they are being bred to fast. 2 year old dogs have twenty litter in a year or two (they are not even fuly developed, that is ridiculous. I also beleive we should be focusing more on the long live females. It seems we only talk about the males. Just my thoughts :D
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Unread postby BasKal » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:55 am

No, I 'm pretty sure that things are not going to getting better - even if some of the top males so much used are healthy enough to live to 10 -12.
They are only some, and DCM is not the only problem. Homozygosis is a far bigger problem for a population.
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:12 am

BasKal wrote:No, I 'm pretty sure that things are not going to getting better - even if some of the top males so much used are healthy enough to live to 10 -12.
They are only some, and DCM is not the only problem. Homozygosis is a far bigger problem for a population.


Well, I at least hope they last the rest of my life, because nothing is promised to anyone or anything.
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:58 am

Here is ann example of what I was talking about using long live studs
Quinn = 11 years
Prince = 13 years
Baron - 13 years

Something has to be good abouth these dogs from the same line, I know other in the line may not have lived as long but this part did.

Urbano = 7 and counting
Victor Vito = 8
Moro = ?
Could not find a lot of information about the deaths of others in line which I find strange. I not saying they have a problem just wondering does everyone seem to think this line is the savior? There are others that died at 8 years on DN site. I also have not seen one that has lived longer than the 3 above.
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:20 am

Baron also has at least one son that is 10 years old Armani Dente del Gigante. Still researching more.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:48 am

BasKal wrote:OK, live your illusion... Maybe Furstenfeld lines didnt have so much the DCM problem, but the homogenising of the genepool of the breed regarding the immune system (something that eventualy has the potential to jeopardise the whole breed), has its roots also in furstenfeld breeding. The furstenfeld line is an influential one genetically.
Also, he is a paradigmatic breedr and as such, his practices influenced the practice of others - with the results we have now, regarding the immune system.

Jotunheim, you wrote what I wrote (about Palmer making inbreeding fashionable) in other words :

"...the people who thought they could make breedings semilar to those of Fürstenfeld did that, and their basic breeding material was of a different combination compared to Fürstenfeld - which can also be seen in the lines of today, where CRAZY inbreeding and now also for generations is occuring. Sorry to say this, these breeders still haven't the ability to do this, compared to Palmer. "

Every time I asked as a young fancier, (when I was young in the breed offcourse), some breeder about his inbreeding practices - he told me, about Palmer and how succesfull inbreeding - linebreeding can be...
:roll:

Anyway, I dont pretend that I am going to try to "save" anything. I will only retain my lines for me and nothing else.



Oh, YEA
Furstenfeld is again guilty because the breeders inbreed without any brain and limit again and again on same lines and ill dogs !
In my opinion , how much i read here , Furstenfeld was a breeder which knowed the truth and he remaining away with his line , against actual breeding practices and tenedncies. What happened after his death ....is vissible today.

But I said you all, without Furstenfeld breeder, the actual average age can be much less than 8 years . Without him the ROTWAILERISATION of dobermann breed can be TOTAL .

I public inform , nobody can resist to Rotwaillerisation genes ! If we will continued this direction the ROTWAILLERISATION WILL BE TOTAL !
The Molosoidal genes are very strong today because IMENSE inbreeding coefficients ! Their pig eyes presure is imense . In 2-3 generations , they can transform any isolate line in a Rotwaillerian one !

BasKal wrote:My dear sirs - when alleles nessecary to protect the animals from cancer for example- like the one described- are MISSING from the breed genepool, only outbreeding practice can get them back. Anything within the breed cannot solve this situation.


Imaginate the reverse: what will happened when ill genes will be multiplied again and again like now.The final will be TRAGICALLY !

Then.....theoretically Baksal have right , the best actual race danger is the ILL GENETIC HOMOGENITY ! Because Big Specialists almost closed their circle and every day is more hard to find a real refresh . Incredible but true !
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Unread postby jotunheim » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:45 am

Baskal you wrote:

->
OK, live your illusion... Maybe Furstenfeld lines didnt have so much the DCM problem, but the homogenising of the genepool of the breed regarding the immune system
<-

- we have NOT had ANY DCM problems over Fürstenfeld
- we have NOT had ANY immune ineffency over Fürstenfeld

You have chosen to live in your illusion - and I'm not living in any form of illusion, as these are the facts from the breedings we have made, and also in connection with our Fürstenfeld female, which we have preserved.
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Unread postby jotunheim » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:53 am

bmgillespie wrote:Here is ann example of what I was talking about using long live studs
Quinn = 11 years
Prince = 13 years
Baron - 13 years

Something has to be good abouth these dogs from the same line, I know other in the line may not have lived as long but this part did.

Urbano = 7 and counting
Victor Vito = 8
Moro = ?
Could not find a lot of information about the deaths of others in line which I find strange. I not saying they have a problem just wondering does everyone seem to think this line is the savior? There are others that died at 8 years on DN site. I also have not seen one that has lived longer than the 3 above.


What about the littermates to the mentioned dogs - what about the offspring from simelar combinations - what about the parents to these dogs ..... have you looked further back than 5 generations ? Try making a 13 generation calculation - then tell about consistency of health and long levity ...
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:29 pm

jotunheim wrote:
bmgillespie wrote:Here is ann example of what I was talking about using long live studs
Quinn = 11 years
Prince = 13 years
Baron - 13 years

Something has to be good abouth these dogs from the same line, I know other in the line may not have lived as long but this part did.

Urbano = 7 and counting
Victor Vito = 8
Moro = ?
Could not find a lot of information about the deaths of others in line which I find strange. I not saying they have a problem just wondering does everyone seem to think this line is the savior? There are others that died at 8 years on DN site. I also have not seen one that has lived longer than the 3 above.


What about the littermates to the mentioned dogs - what about the offspring from simelar combinations - what about the parents to these dogs ..... have you looked further back than 5 generations ? Try making a 13 generation calculation - then tell about consistency of health and long levity ...


Yes,
I actualaly did but I like I said they must have good resistance to whatever problems their littermates and ancestors had.
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Unread postby BasKal » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:47 pm

Valencia - I dont "acuse" furstenfeld - this breeder is no more "guilty" than other incest practicing breeders, but he has his share in creating the present proplem genetically, and also he helped to popularise inbreeding.

It is clear I think, that have no illusions. I dont think that I am better than others, and I dont think that I will "save" anything.
I use the dogs I like - if they are old and healthy, the better.
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Unread postby jotunheim » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:15 pm

bmgillespie wrote:
jotunheim wrote:
bmgillespie wrote:Here is ann example of what I was talking about using long live studs
Quinn = 11 years
Prince = 13 years
Baron - 13 years

Something has to be good abouth these dogs from the same line, I know other in the line may not have lived as long but this part did.

Urbano = 7 and counting
Victor Vito = 8
Moro = ?
Could not find a lot of information about the deaths of others in line which I find strange. I not saying they have a problem just wondering does everyone seem to think this line is the savior? There are others that died at 8 years on DN site. I also have not seen one that has lived longer than the 3 above.


What about the littermates to the mentioned dogs - what about the offspring from simelar combinations - what about the parents to these dogs ..... have you looked further back than 5 generations ? Try making a 13 generation calculation - then tell about consistency of health and long levity ...


Yes,
I actualaly did but I like I said they must have good resistance to whatever problems their littermates and ancestors had.


Perhabs - but they still carry the genes from which their littermates or ancestors died of ...
Example:
litter of 6 - 5 dies before 6 years, 1 lives to 11
male reaching 11 is used, because "people THINK" he will provide long levity, but most offspring from this male died just as young as the littermates to this "sire/male"
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