What do we do now? S.O.S

What do we do now? S.O.S

Unread postby bmgillespie » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:36 pm

Hello all,
Now that everyone agrees we cannot bring back the old lines what do we do now?
Here is a place to put all POSITIVE suggestions in one place.
(Please save you disagreements for the chatboard )

Most agree about health testing definitely before breeding i.e
vWD (Dna Version), DCM, Woobler, PHTVL, Eyes, Thyroid, Heart (24 hour)
How often should test be done?
What about shots? i.e Rabies, etc
What about breeding age and practices? i.e. line-breeding, litters.
What about feeding?
We have standards but are they correct? i.e It seems Dobermanns are getting larger, which could be cotributing to health problems and work ability.
How much excercise?

Any other POSITIVE suggestions are welcome, This would be more helpful than what has been going on here and it would help new owners and would be breeders and possibly help our Dobermann that a lot seemed to have dommed. If you disagree with something please just provide a better solution and not attack others choices here. We are looking for POSITIVE suggestions.
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:02 pm

Some of my thoughts:
I beleive in all test before breeding, some before every breeeding I know this can get costly but it will help slow down rapid breedings.
I believe a minium age of 2 plus years
I now believe in minium amount of necessary shots.
I beleive FCI, AKC, DV and others should limit the number of registered litters by ALL dogs both male and female, with it increasing as the dog gets older. I think this will slow the spread of problems and eventually get it to a manageable level. I know this will cause some discussion but my answer is that semen could be collected and used if the dog has passed a certain age ( to be determined or debated).
I cannot comment on line breeding I do not have enough experience on it and probably should have left it out because there seems to be no good answer but there are some, very few from what I have researched that may have knowledge on this subject. I should have put succesful line breeding for improvement of the bred or line.
I also beleive there should be NO variance in the standards ( whatever they are?) as far as when it comes to shows or work, no matter how good the dog is. I am not saying it should not be bred but should not be able to win against dogs who comply to the standard.
I beleive excercise should be natural because the dog knows when it should stop. I think this gives the dog a chance to develop naturally without putting to much strain on their system before they are ready. I know people who run their dogs on treadmills to build them up like they are training for a marathon especially before shows and then hardly no excercise. This has to be a bad thing.

These are the practices I believe would help our Dobermanns. What are your POSITIVE things? Please post them.
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:15 pm

Here is some very useful information that was posted on chat board that I think should be known and helpful.

An echocardiogram measures the size of the heart chambers and the pumping ability of the heart. A holter measures the consistency of the electrical conduction of the heart. I believe that the echo is the better of the two.

The only reliable tests for Wobblers are a myleogram or MRI. Both are very expensive and the dye injection is invasive and risky. I would never subject the dog to this unless there is a suspicion that the dog is affected. A regular X-ray will not tell you anything. Also, like DCM, Wobblers rarely affects the dogs before middle age, so testing at a young age is pretty meanless for the longterm predictor of whether the dog will get Wobblers in middle or old age.

I am glad to know this because I will save my money until needed. Are there other test that should be done at later time? I know here in U.S we cannot get HD test until 24 months and in Europe I see them at quite an earlier age. I know the statistics for early test are good indicator at a later age, can someone post them here please. I know someone has them handy.
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:52 pm

vWD Testing places:

VetGen
3728 Plaza Drive, Suite 1
Ann Arbor, Michigan, 48108 USA

Phone: 734.669.8440
Toll Free: 800.483.8436 (US & Canada)
Fax: 734.669.8441

Labolkin:
http://www.laboklin.de/pages/php/form_kontakt.php

Finnzymes Diagnostics
Keilaranta 16 A
02150 Espoo
Finland

Tel. +358 9 2472 3010
Fax +358 9 2472 3200
e-mail: fz(at)finnzymes.fi
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:15 pm

Other useful places for good information:

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
http://www.offa.org/

Can find out HD and other good information for dogs registered with them.

Doberman Pincher Club of America Longevity list, 10 years or older list:
http://www.dpca.org/Longevty/longevity/

vWD tested dogs in Iceland:
http://dobermann.is/index.php?option=co ... Itemid=102

In U.S.A vWD test are classifeid as:
Clear, Carrier, Affected

In some countires it is classified as:
1 - NN = clear
2 - N/vWD1 = carrier
3 - vWD1/vWD1 = affected

Free or Frei - does not necessarily mean dog is clear just means not affected.
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Unread postby anubis@2007 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:26 pm

Hi. In my opinion any tests done to the dog are reliable. vWD, cervical spine Xray (at least t can indicate a vertebral malformation), echocardio done from time to time to see if the initial values change, blood tests including tyroid and of course HD.
I don't agree with matings at old age. A reproductive female should be first mated at 2-3 years old, after her third heat. The chances to get pregnant and have healthy offsprings are much better than mating her at 5 or 6 years old. Many of these bitches don't get pregnant at all, even if the stud is ok. But I do agree that the dogs should have their health tests done, at least some of them.
I guess there are some rigid and too mathematical opinions expressed on this forum regarding health, character and matings that will not apply in real life because it is impossible.
anubis@2007
 

Unread postby bmgillespie » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:32 pm

SImple explanation of:

Degenerative Eye Diseases (PHTVL/PHPV)
Impaired vision up to full loss of the sight is the result of genetic conditioned degeneration of the eye and occurs in several breeds with different frequently.

According to Willis (1994) the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Basenji and the Doberman are affected most strongly by PHTVL/PHPV. This is a disorder of a fetal development of the eye that results in large and small spots and turbidity on the eye; the spots are caused by the persistent (that would normally disappear) embryonic membranes and blood vessels. It is assumed to be an autosomal incompletely dominant heredity (Schüler 1997) and a high heritability should be expected. The abbreviations mean: PHTVL persistent hyperplastic Tunica vascularis lentis, PHPV persistent hyper-plastic primary Vitreum.

While this disease is presently very rare in the American Doberman, it can be expected to increase with the arrival of European imports unless vigilance is practiced. Dogs with consequence of the incomplete dominant heredity; Dogs with mild degrees of this defect can produce blind whelps
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:36 pm

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Unread postby ins0mnia » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:44 pm

Hello bmgillespie,

Before I write any further I need to point out to that there are few breeders that did manage to maintain healthy old lines (we know who they are don't we). If there's any hope for the breed, it would be in those lines from those breeders.

Now this is *exactly* what we need to do:

1) There's an ongoing petition with almost 3000 members/signatures now, I estimate we will reach 10000 members in 2-3 months time.

2) Join this petition and invite all serious breeders you know to join it, the link is: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=1 ... 329&v=wall soon we will have a website up and running too. There are key people from the Dobermann community already supporting this.

3) Read the petition (found in the description when you click on the link) it has about 20 clauses that will eventually result in selective breeding. For example, one of the clauses asks for disallowing dogs to participate in competitions unless the average age in the pedigree is over 9 years and such participation is conditional upon current health tests. Another clause asks for revision of registration rules to prevent the registration of the offspring of any mating between first-degree and second-degree relatives (to increase genetic diversity) and limit the number of litters a male can sire to 5-6 (I've seen some of the current popular sires and how many times they are used, god help us).

4) Help us with this petition by spreading the word and contribute with feedbacks until we make sure it's adopted by the DV and the FCI.

Many of those "famous" breeders have been having it their way for so many years and now recent studies show that DCM *alone* is responsible for 60% of death causes in the breed. Now, it is us owners who are leading this petition and I swear to god we will stop at nothing until we put an end to this disgrace and bullshit driven by pure greed.

The days where kennels such as Fürstenfeld, von der Weyermühle, Ellendonk or von der Mooreiche when breeding was for the purpose of improving the breed are long gone, and whoever has a hand in destroying the breed should be held accountable.

When a breeder continues to breed on "damaged" lines despite knowledge of multiple DCM cases or other genetic diseases that's pure animal cruelty. I know that many of such breeders are here on this website, so I'm calling upon you to stop doing what you're doing because your time is soon up, step up to the play, change your practices and join this call for change before it's too late for you.

No more talk, no more discussions, now we're acting. Questions? PM me.
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Unread postby ins0mnia » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:38 am

I'm having troubles with PM, my email address is amackouly{at}hotmail.com please contact me there instead.. thank you
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