Fedor Del Nasi - his and his lines influence on the breed

Fedor Del Nasi - his and his lines influence on the breed

Unread postby ins0mnia » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:13 pm

Since longevity is a topic often discussed here, I thought I'd pick one of of the most influential Sires of today as an example to make my point clear.

This post is by no means a critic to Fedor as such, as I believe if dogs could decide on their own breedings they would most probably do a better job that most of today's breeders are doing, both willingly and out of ignorance.

A simple research (if I could do it, a breeder can do it) shows the following facts about Fedor's pedigree:

1st generation
-----------------
AKUNA MATATA DE GRANDE VINKO - Died at the age of 8

2nd generation:
------------------
BORANA SAWAGES - Died at the age of 3 (!!)
TIGR IZ SLAVNOI STAI - Died at the age of 4 (!!)
AK-YAR ANDROMEDA - Died at the age of 8

3rd generation:
------------------
KASTRA V NORDENN STAMM - Died at the age of 8
HEIDY ROYAL BELL - Died at the age of 9
UGOR DI VILLA CONTE - Died at the age of 5 (!!)
INDIRA V.D. RAUBERHÖHLE - Died at the age of 5 (!!)

4th generation:
-----------------
EBO V.D. GROOTE MAAT - Died at the age of 6 (!!)
ALIDA V FLANDRSICHEN LOWEN - Died at the age of 9
GRAVIN UNITA V. NEERLAND STAM - Died at the age of 8
KARMEL KESIA V. DIASPORA - Died at the age of 7 (!!)
ZHARRET DIAMANT - Died at the age of 4 (!!)

5th generation
-----------------
ALEXA V HEIDERHOF - Died at the age of 9
VIVRE VIVIEN V FRANCKENHORST - Died at the age of 7 (!!)
GRAAF IGON V. NEERLANDS STAM - Died at the age of 7 (!!)
DEEA DOLORES V FRANCKENHORST- Died at the age of 8
ALENA DI VILLA CONTE - Died at the age of 3 (!!)
KASTRA V NORDENN STAMM - Died at the age of 8
KALINA V. NORDEN STAMM - Died at the age of 9
VITESSE V FRANCKENHORST - Died at the age of 8
BJÖRN V. STOKEBRAND - Died at the age of 8
EICK V.D. RAPPENAU - Died at the age of 7

There was a time when breeding was for the betterment of the health of the breed, but now health and age has dramatically declined. Some studies I have read are sure that DCM are the cause of 57% of deaths in the Dobermann. And please don't argue with me about the accuracy of the above, we see the trend here, and if you, then please state your name so I could look up your pedigrees too.

Famous Sires like the above are bred over and over again hundreds of times across all countries, and in each breeding a potential ticking genetic bomb is passed to new generations, it's so bad that it's almost impossible to find any healthy bloodlines left.

So as an owner I'm asking you all: How on earth would you allow this to happen? And for what? titles?? If this noble breed goes down, it will be *your* own doings and you will go down in history of books as the group of breeders that finally put an end to the breed as we know it.

Now you can go ahead and scream in this forum, all feedbacks are welcome.
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Unread postby gribbon » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:16 am

A similar research can give to us different conclusions:

1st generation
Baron Nike Renewal died at the age of 12

2nd generation
Prinz v.Norden Stam died at the age of 13


3rd generation
Quin dei Nobili Nati died at the age of 12
Graaf Festus v.Neerlands Stam died at the age of 10
Larson v.Frankenland died at the age of 10


4th generation
Runo dei Nobili Nati and Tairi di Campovalano no info but many breeders consider them as long lived dogs
Graf Guido v.Franckenhorst died at the age of 10
Hargos vh Wantij died at the age of 10
Gamon di Campovalano died at the age of 10
Baron Bryan v.Harro's Berg died at the age of 11
Prinz v.Norden Stam died at the age of 13


5th generation
Elisir di Campovalano no official records for his death but he is also considered as long live dog
Hertog Alpha le Dobry (twice in the 5th gener.)died at the age of 12
Graaf Quirinus v.Neerlands Stam (twice in the 5th g)died at the age of 11
Quin dei Nobili Nati died at the age of 12
Baron Cesar v.Rensloo died at the age of 12

As you can easily see ins0mnia there is always a different view.You mentioned many dogs who died prematurely and also some other dogs who died at 9 years (it is not considered as a young age or premature death).You mentioned the DCM desease but i have one question: is the DCM the cause of every premature death??Certainly NO.For example Vitesse v.Franckenhorst died at the age of 8 due to cancer!!!Dea Dolores v.Franckenhorst died because of cancer too!!
Obviously NOT every dog in your research died because of the DCM.
You mentioned "some studies" but please publish one of them.We cannot discuss on a general base called "some studies".
There is no genetic test for the DCM dear insomnia and that is a big problem.A test (ie holter) done at the age of 3 for example no matter if the result is clear cannot preclude the possibility of the dcm desease at the age of 5.It is possible for the dog to have dcm in the future!But until that moment the dog will have many progeny.What is your opinion insomnia?To stop those progeny from breeding or to try to save the future lines?Avoiding the progeny or the relatives of a dog who died from dcm maybe will lead to another problem: narrow down the genetic pool of the breed.That will put an end to the breed dear insomnia.What the breed and the breeders need is a genetic test against the dcm.Without this practicaly the breed is without serious help.
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Unread postby ins0mnia » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:54 am

Hi gribbon,

First I'll start by giving you a link to a study from 2002 for your reading pleasure: http://www.dobermandata.com/GradyACVIM2002.html

Now, I have to disagree with what you say. This is *not* about different views. I'll tell you why: You have listed to me some dogs in Fedor's pedigree that lived to 10-12 including couple to 13, and that's fine. But my question here is, when 50% of the dogs in the pedigree die at an early age doesn't this worry you?? isn't this an enough reason *not* to do the breeding? In my books the pedigree has to be as sound and as clear as possible going back 13 generations *prior* to breeding.

Why? because genetic diseases are, well, inherited?? they are like ticking bombs you never know when they show up. When you (as a breeder) know there's a big risk those puppies will be carrying a ticking genetic bomb and you still do the breeding then I'm sorry, this is not about different views, this is about moral, and I'm not talking about Fedor in specific here (he's just an example), I'm talking about the breeding practices that are so common now.

Why is it so that only when you go back in history it was more common to see Dobies that live over 10 years? and even up to 15 years? and why is it so that 9 years is considered "old" now?

Yes it's true, there is no genetic test for many of the genetic diseases, and this is *exactly* why bloodlines that are contaminated with genetic diseases SHOULD NOT be bred upon! When you (again as a breeder) *know* the bloodline contains multiple DCM cases and *still* do the breeding, I'm sorry you don't need a genetic test to tell you not to do the breeding!

I also have to disagree with you one one more point, avoiding the progeny or the relatives of a dog who died from dcm will not destroy the breed as we know those bloodlines are closely related and if you trace back their pedigrees you'll see that. Most breeders chose to use those lines because they are "in fashion" and not for any other reason. So to continue on using those bloodlines is that *will* kill the breed because not only the breed's gene pool is limited to start with, using those lines over and over again has already contaminated any remaining healthy bloodlines, and this is what is killing the breed. We also know it's horrible of the diversity of the gene pool.

Yes DCM was there before, it's been written about it 30 years ago, but there's a big difference between "was there" and "is everywhere". Why is that? this is *not* a natural evolution of the breed. This is a result of bad breeding practices that pretty much does not care about genetic diseases.

On the other hand, I will tell you what will save the breed: Selective breeding! We need to find those sound healthy bloodlines and start from scratch all over again. What is popular in the show ring doesn't cut it, breeders have to realize that "looking good" is no longer enough. We need to go back in time, sit down together and decide on the bloodlines that serve the breed's health and start from there.

Before I conclude my reply, please remember that the vast majority of breed owners are simple people like me, we're not breeders nor do we participate in competitions, the current situation is so bad that the dobermann community is starting to wake up. Me and you can argue forth and back, but the fact remains that Dobermann owners are saying "enough is enough", in less than two months 3000 people signed on a petition to change the current breeding practices and I believe in 3-4 months time there will be 10,000 signatures. Isn't this a sign for breeders to reflect a bit and reconsider their breeding program? Change is coming sooner or later.

Further study reading even from this site here (look at Sonia Dobie's post):
http://www.dobermann-review.com/phpBB/v ... 0&start=30
and this: http://www.dobermann-review.com/phpBB/s ... Sonia+Dobe

There you have it ;)

PS: please pay attention to my use of the work *you* as I'm not referring to you personally ;)
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Unread postby gribbon » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:07 pm

Ok,i understand that you're not referring to me personaly.There is no personal fight between us.Just a ... different point of view!!
First of all,considering the published study it is written by a Canadian vet and speaks about North American dobermans.So i don't have any further comment on it.
You asked me
"But my question here is, when 50% of the dogs in the pedigree die at an early age doesn't this worry you?? "

I had already anwer at the previous post.A premature death or a sudden death isn't necessarily the result of DCM.There is a variety of reasons and every case is different.

You wrote:
"the pedigree has to be as sound and as clear as possible going back 13 generations *prior* to breeding."

Be realistic!!13 generations?Do you know how many dogs included in 13 generations of a dog???It is impossible for all of them to be healthy.
Another factor that you must not forget is the mutation of genes.Even from clear dogs or from clear pedigree you can have some problems in the future.Practicaly there is NO clear pedigree not because of breeder's fault but because the DCM is in the genes of the breed.It is not a new problem.
Avoiding the relatives and the progeny of an effected animal is totaly wrong practise.You will get the same genes from another "clear" line.Only the genetic test will be a serious "weapon" against the DCM.A "healthy" dog tested by holter or ultrasound it can die after some months due to DCM.Let's suppose that this dog named "X" is a male and has 100 progeny.According to you all those progeny must NOT be used in reproduction.But it is also very possible that NO ONE of them has the desease.They can be clear.There is no sense to avoid them in breeding unless we don't have a genetic test which will prove to us who has the genes to develop the dcm desease in the future.
If we avoid the 100 progeny of the "X" dog of the example,then we will have to avoid all their relatives and progeny as well?What is this number?Thousands!!!!For every dog who dies due to dcm there are thousands of relatives.Dear insomnia between those dogs there can be animals with perfect character,perfect hips,healthy eyes-liver-kidneys-thyroid,free of Wobbler syndrome and even dcm free etc.I insist that there is no scientific reason to avoid all of them in breeding just because we are thinking that maybe some of them will have the dcm in the future.Does this practise leave to the breeders any breeding "material" or it reduces the gene pool?
We don't need such a selection based on rumors or fears but we do need a genetic test.

ie as for the other studies i don't see anywhere the 57%.I remind you that you wrote
"Some studies I have read are sure that DCM are the cause of 57% of deaths in the Dobermann"
That is not correct.
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Unread postby ins0mnia » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:04 pm

Hi gribbon,

There study I was referring to was conducted at Ludwig Maximilians University on European Dobermann and published in June this month and it included 775 examination on 412 dobermanns, below is the summary:

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Prevalence of dilated cardiomyopathy in doberman pinschers in various age groups.
Wess G, Schulze A, Butz V, Simak J, Killich M, Keller LJ, Maeurer J, Hartmann K.

Clinic of Small Animal Medicine, Ludwig Maximilians University, Munich, Germany. gwess@lmu.de


BACKGROUND: Dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) in Doberman Pinschers is an autosomal dominant inherited disease. The prevalence of DCM in Doberman Pinschers of various age groups in Europe is currently unknown, but this information would be important to develop recommendations for screening programs.

OBJECTIVES: To evaluate the prevalence of cardiomyopathy in various age groups of Dobermans.

ANIMALS: Seven hundred and seventy-five examinations in 412 Doberman Pinschers.

METHODS: Dogs were included in a prospective longitudinal cohort study. Each examination included echocardiography and 24-hour ECG (Holter) examination. A cut-off value of >100 ventricular premature contractions (VPCs) per 24 hours on Holter examination or abnormal echocardiography was considered diagnostic for cardiomyopathy. The cumulative prevalence included all dogs with DCM and healthy dogs >7 years of age.

RESULTS: DCM prevalence in various age groups was as follows: age group 1 (1 to <2 years) 3.3%, age group 2 (2 to <4 years) 9.9%, age group 3 (4 to <6 years) 12.5%, age group 4 (6 to <8 years) 43.6%, and age group 5 (>8 years) 44.1%. The cumulative prevalence of Doberman Pinscher cardiomyopathy was 58.2%. There was an equal sex distribution, but male dogs showed earlier echocardiographic changes than did female dogs, which had significantly more VPCs.

CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL IMPORTANCE: The prevalence of Doberman cardiomyopathy is very high in Europe. Disease manifestation and progression are different between male and female dogs. Yearly screening for DCM by Holter examination and echocardiography is recommended, starting at 2 years of age.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Take a *very* good look at the results: 58.2%!! Isn't that just shocking? Now these are facts, I hope this put an end on the discussion around this point.

About researching 13 generations, yes this *very* important for any breeder to do a proper research and study because the influence from the 5th, 8th generation or even further back doesn't provide you with sufficient knowledge about the history behind the lines because there are no random variations withing ancestors, so the dogs of the past have a GREAT impact on the dogs of today and therefore breeders MUST know what they are breeding. This is also why it's very important NOT to breed on pedigrees with multiple cases of DCM, why? because any of the siblings will carry the gene and pass it on to further generations, and in reality you can never know when it ticks in.

Now I can understand if DCM happens once a 100 times in a pedigree, but to see pedigrees filled with DCM cases being used over and over just because some of the dogs didn't catch on the gene is wrong. Now you say that avoiding the relatives and the progeny of an effected animal is totally wrong practice as you will get the same genes from another "clear" line. That's very incorrect as those "clear" lines, even if they go back to the same ancestors, have been bread with health consideration and not using dogs with genetic disorders, unlike what's happening today where breeders do the mating with the knowledge of multiple DCM cases in the pedigree. Remember that genetic diseases are inherited, yeah, genetic mutations do happen but 58% DCM rate? that's not a natural evolution.

Now let me tell you what I'm talking about, take a look at Maggie Krillenburg, Ivar Jotunheim and similar dogs (I can give you a very long list) for example, why is it so that the average age in their pedigree is well over 11 years and you don't see those "strange" deaths at the age 2-9? and why is it so you don't see DCM there?

And here's my question to you, if you know about "clean" lines with proven long longevity and we all know that DCM is very much genetic, why is it so that the breeder community continues to use those lines instead of the healthy ones? titles?. I mean, you do have a choice.
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Unread postby ins0mnia » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:35 pm

"The history is always the same and anyone can be to do it. It is not necessary be a genius. A typical breeding plan: "My approach would be to identify an outstanding, dominant stud dog: call him Superdobe. I'd buy two bitches whose grandsire on the dam's side was the same as Superdobe. I would breed bitches of the Superdobe’s grandsire to Superdobe. Assume, in this first generation, that I get two nice bitches. For the second generation, I'd breed them to a half-brother of these two bitches (Superdobe’s son, also a dominant sire)." Then problems arise. What can we do about genetic diversity of the population in the next generation if most dogs (males and females) are sired by Gino, Fedor, F’Hiram and relatives? Even these three dogs are related by kinship. What is the limit?

Everyone can do what he wants but the link between inbreeding on popular sires and the increase of genetic disease risk is a scientific conclusion not an interested view. A purebred dog with the genetic history of Dobermann it is a very delicate genetic entity to be handled carefully.
"

Read this post by Sonia: http://www.dobermann-review.com/phpBB/v ... 0&start=30
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Unread postby gribbon » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:51 pm

775 examination on 412 dobermanns
it is a very small number!
RESULTS: DCM prevalence in various age groups was as follows: age group 1 (1 to <2 years) 3.3%, age group 2 (2 to <4 years) 9.9%, age group 3 (4 to <6 years) 12.5%, age group 4 (6 to <8 years) 43.6%, and age group 5 (>8 years) 44.1%. The cumulative prevalence of Doberman Pinscher cardiomyopathy was 58.2%.

Cumulative prevalence is NOT average.In another words that DOESN'T mean what you claimed at another post : " Some studies I have read are sure that DCM are the cause of 57% of deaths in the Dobermann. "
I told you that the dcm is in the genes of the breed.It was also in the past.Please don't say to me about ages of death of dogs from the past in comparison to the modern dogs.There is no sense because there is a variety of reasons which lead a dog to death and mostly because for every dog which you will mention,i can mention to you another one from the modern era who lived long.But this kind of discussion makes no sense.

You wrote:
"Now you say that avoiding the relatives and the progeny of an effected animal is totally wrong practice as you will get the same genes from another "clear" line. "
Certainly i didn't say this.Please read more carefully what i wrote.It is wrong practise because you reduce the genetic pool of the breed.
A breeder's aim is to improve the breed.Avoiding a dog (named X at my example given at the previous post) who has dcm doesn't mean that you must avoid his brother who might be dcm free!Certainly it is stupid to avoid all the relatives.We speak about thousands of dogs.
As for your question...where do you see only breeders who use effected lines instead the healthy ones????
Dear insomnia what you don't understand is that we must NOT stop breeding but to improve the breeding.We need a genetic test and not fears and rumors.
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Unread postby ins0mnia » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:22 pm

Oh excuse me, so a "cumulative prevalence" of 58.2% wasn't good enough?. Ok then, how about an *accurate* wording: 50% of today's EU Dobermann *does* develop DCM. There you go, the full study, in PDF, for your reading pleasure, print and enjoy:
http://www.tierkardiologie.lmu.de/downl ... pathy%20in%
20Doberman%20Pinschers%20in%20Various%20Age%20Groups%20JVIM%202010.pdf

Now about this: "There is no sense because there is a variety of reasons which lead a dog to death and mostly because for every dog which you will mention,I can mention to you another one from the modern era who lived long. But this kind of discussion makes no sense. " - if what you are saying is correct then how come the *average* age of the Dobermann in the past was much higher? now I already know you're going to tell me "prove that" so before you ask this question please check the previous links I gave you.

If you have a litter of 8, out of which 4 develope DCM and died early while the other four lived to 10, does this make your argument correct? and do you consider this to be a good breeding because "DCM is the gene"?

Let's look at Fedor:
- In 5 generation you got 62 dogs
- 21 of those dogs died before the age of 10 = 33,88%
- Of those 21 dogs, 18 dogs died before 8 = 29,03%
- 7 dogs died before 5 years = 11,3%

Then there's the fact that several litter mates of Prinz died before 8 some even earlier, one of which was put down before 2 years old due to immune system defect as she had generalized demodex. Then there are the dogs of Baron Nike's bother that died "early" and Nike's sister that died very young. And that's just the tip of the iceberg!

The problem is that breeders consider this healthy (do you?)! what you are telling me is this: Ah, I see this is horrible but hey check this out, here's one that lived to 11!

Come on :-)
Last edited by ins0mnia on Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:34 pm

Friend Gribbon. Is long time since we don't talk. Probable because in the last time we have different views and paths .
I try to understood you , and ,even you make so much advertising of dangerouse bloodlines , always I consider you an artist which love the breed beauty.
But please, don't transform yourself in a DEVIL ADVOCATE !
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Unread postby gribbon » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:18 pm

Friend Valencia do you agree to stop from breeding every line which has some desease?Do you know any line without desease?Do you know any totaly healthy line?You are breeder.Is your aim to improve your dogs considering health,character,beauty (anatomy+type) or not? If yes,then the K factor is selection and knowledge.Not fear,rumors and statistcs of 400 dogs.
Insomnia please tell us your point.Do you claim that Baron Nike should have been a pet without matings?What about Gino Gomez?How do you explain that he is free of DCM and that he doesn't transmit dcm to his progeny?According to your theories both Baron and Gino shouldn't have been used in breeding as also their progeny and their relatives!!!How many thousands of dogs?????????????
If you believe this,then i will not have any further comment.
Friend Valencia where do you see that i advertise dangerous bloodlines?Health problems exist in every bloodline.The correct selection belong to the breeders like you.Tomorrow a Romanian puppy from your breeding will come in Athens! I will go at the airport with the owner.If i like her in reality (by the way i like her in photos!) and i upload photos in forum or write good comments for her,then i will be the devil's advocade???Certainly not my dear friend!
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Unread postby dinko2506 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:26 pm

ok! But, but what about Fedor?! Is he gennetically "safe" from disases like DCM?

Because, it is imposiblle to find pedigree withaout him, and some breeders who use "closed" blood use him!

http://www.diamantenero.it/new_index2.html
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Unread postby dinko2506 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:26 pm

ok! But, but what about Fedor?! Is he gennetically "safe" from disases like DCM?

Because, it is imposiblle to find pedigree withaout him, and some breeders who use "closed" blood use him!

http://www.diamantenero.it/new_index2.html
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Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:28 pm

Friend Gribbon

I do not agree to eliminate from breeding stock something or somebody.
Every bloodline have his role. But I agree to don't use in exces that dominant bloodlines because their imense danger . Or..that don't happened today...the dominant lines presure increase day by day.

Without the let say 'RADICAL' breeders will be impossible do pass over the actual problems . With all world tests ! Becausse the problem is genetically will be solved only genetically. Without that breeders, BYE BYE ! We need to respect , protect and promoted them !

Or...till now they endured the destruction of their bloodlines, insultings, threatening, and derides . Then the battle becomed disperate .

Already remained only few breeders and few bloodlines which play against death , even they have not soo beautiful dobermanns like IDC siegers which died youngs.

Then dear Gribbon ,
few breeders which undertood the danger are enforced to do / request radical things !

I still wait and believe in the day when Giota and you will presente in pictures this dobermanns , maybe not soo beautiful but wanderfull because their imense beauty of character and longevity.
I wait to see on Giota pictures the fantastic soul , love and light from their eyes...
Tell that to Giota , please.!

In that day, all of us separated ways will be again only one.
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Unread postby ins0mnia » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:37 pm

dinko2506: Fedor is FAR from being genetically safe, take a look at my previous post and do the math. Every single puppy that is directly or indirectly related to Fedor is FAR from being genetically safe. Keep reading this post you'll know why.

gribbon: I asked you a question in my previous post and you didn't answer, so I will ask it again: Do you consider Fedor's pedigree to be healthy??

Now I'm going to answer your questions, without getting into whatever you and Valencia are discussing so that I could keep my answers clear and to the point, I hope you do the same as well:

1) YES Baron and Gino should *not* have been used for breeding, should look up their I pedigrees for you? (hint hint Baron's mother? 3 years old when she died? Gino's mom died at the age of 2 and the father at the age of 7?) as much as Fedor should *not* have been used for breeding as well as many if not most of today's popular sires in the show ring, this also applies to many of past popular sires including Prinz, so YES they should have been kept as pets. Not only because they are killing the gene pool, but also because their lines are genetically contaminated hence passing this to all future generations. I mean it might be that it's already too late, there are only few healthy bloodlines left and studies such as the one I showed you clearly demonstrate how in deep s***t the breed is.

2) If a dog is free of DCM (at this point) it doesn't mean he's not carrying the gene in him and transmitting it to his progeny, we've talked about this before, remember the example of the litter of 8 puppies? only one of them lived to 10? does it mean the sire/dam was healthy?

3) The *ONLY* way to ensure genetic diseases are not passed on is by doing *selective* breeding, this means, you as a breeder pick HEALTHY bloodlines that are AS SOUND AND AS FREE from genetic diseases. It doesn't take an expert to understand that genetic diseases are inherited and passed on to future generations.

4) You asked where are those healthy bloodlines, I gave you two examples, did you even bother to look at their pedigrees? If you spend just a little time you'll notice there are *no* DCM incidents there (nor Wobbler and others) which *explains* why almost EVERY SINGLE dog the in those pedigrees have lived for over 10 years. I can give you an even LONGER list of dogs with healthy bloodlines. So I will repeat my questions, why you breeders are not using them? Just spit it out and tell me because they are not "popular in the show ring"

Dinko wrote "Because, it is imposiblle to find pedigree withaout him, and some breeders who use closed blood use him!" and the only thing I have to say about this: MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON THE BREED'S SOUL because this IS EXACTLY what's killing the breed, both in terms of gene diversity as well as genetic diseases! I'll repeat the findings from Fedor's pedigree:

- In 5 generation you got 62 dogs
- 21 of those dogs died before the age of 10 = 33,88%
- Of those 21 dogs, 18 dogs died before 8 = 29,03%
- 7 dogs died before 5 years = 11,3%

You claim the K factor is selection and knowledge, well if you call a respected university research "rumors" and the above on Fedor's (and similar sires) selection, then this exactly proves my point. Knowledge means that you research the pedigree, do your upmost to make sure it's as healthy as possible and selection means you find the best healthy lines and use them to make sure you bring healthy puppies into the world! You speak of Baron and Gino have you done your homework on them? did anyone do that? so much for research and selection.

We all know what's coming, you know it, and I know it. So let's not play hide and seek, we all know why everyone use those popular show dogs. And again, check the example healthy pedigrees I gave you, you're a breeder so you should be able to know to do that, and if not then I can give you a hand. So I'm asking again, why aren't you using those healthy lines?
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Unread postby BasKal » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:28 pm

Valencia - if you buy Insomnia's bull, you must spay all your female pups today - and castrate Citto and the 2 males from your previus litter by Davor.
So simple.
Last edited by BasKal on Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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