DCM Genetic Mutation Identified by WSU in the USA

Unread postby bilclarie » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:31 pm

Well I can asure you Ronindobe my vet will not be taking a bribe from me but just doing there job for which I will pay a consultation fee, just like all the other test my dogs have had, they will all be "correct and above board" as we say in England.


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Unread postby Ronindobe » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:49 pm

Of course. I believe most people will and do operate honestly, especially small and mid size operations. In most instance ones that are behaving questionably are at least suspected by those knowledgable in that area.

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DCM testing

Unread postby teagie » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:23 am

Jotumheim
Are you always so rude ,I was making a statement and only a statement I dont have all the answers and It is simple, as i said before if people stop buying pups from untested parents breeders will have to test ,How honest people are is up to them if they dont care nothing you ,I or anyone else does will change them. If you dont like or agree with what I said thats also up to you you dont have to be nasty
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Re: DCM testing

Unread postby jotunheim » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:48 pm

teagie wrote:Jotumheim
Are you always so rude ,I was making a statement and only a statement I dont have all the answers and It is simple, as i said before if people stop buying pups from untested parents breeders will have to test ,How honest people are is up to them if they dont care nothing you ,I or anyone else does will change them. If you dont like or agree with what I said thats also up to you you dont have to be nasty


I don't know HOW you read my questions to you - and I was certainly NOT being rude in any way - Just tried to make you aware, that it's not as easy or simple, as you suggested in your entry.
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Unread postby jotunheim » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:05 pm

Link to the recorded version / Kate Muers - DCM

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9997484
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:08 pm

I have a few question regarding this test, as I understand it the results are going to be either clear or carrier. Does this mean that 2 clears will produce all clear off spring? What would be the results of clear and carrier? Does carrier to carrier guarentee carrier results? In other words will there be a chart like the vWD test? Or will it be that is just better to try and breed 2 clear puppies. I am thinking that if clear to clear does not guarentee clear then other than just being a responsible breeder what would be the reason to pay for this test? I am going to get my 4 dogs done, just to know but if there are no guarentees, why would I or anyone else not use a carrier dogs for breeding especially if the dogs parents are long lived but some of the ancestors are not? Those of you who have a better understnding please reply. I am a computer engineer not into genetics and really do not have time to study it like I should. So, please try to keep it simple for those of us who do not understand all of the genetic talk :D
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Re: DCM testing

Unread postby ins0mnia » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:48 pm

teagie wrote:Jotumheim
Are you always so rude ,I was making a statement and only a statement I dont have all the answers and It is simple, as i said before if people stop buying pups from untested parents breeders will have to test ,How honest people are is up to them if they dont care nothing you ,I or anyone else does will change them. If you dont like or agree with what I said thats also up to you you dont have to be nasty

teagie, I didn't see anything rude in her post, all she did is ask a simple question and it was meant in a constructive way, nothing more and nothing less. Rude is rather when you call someone nasty ;) Remember, we're all on the same page here and if there's anyone in this forum that I can vouch for when it comes to breed's health that would be Jotunheim, you're really hitting on the wrong person. I could care less about this forum here if it wasn't for Jotunheim and honestly I don't understand why she still didn't give up on it, maybe she still have hope that people will wake up and start breeding healthy dogs, I don't know.

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Unread postby Ronindobe » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:23 am

Hey Bryant,
Yes as far as this specific gene mutation is concerned it shakes out very similarly to vWd in inheritance, except being autosomal dom instead of recessive for expression. This includes the potentials of variable penetrance, also witnessed in vWd. But add to this that this may not be and is probably not the only pathway or gene involved in what is NOT a discrete, one dimensional disease. Most "confirmed" deaths by DCM have not been exhaustively investigated in the histopathology or DNA. Perhaps this will happen more now or at least in studies. They've cracked the egg but not yet made an omlet, but some things may happen faster now. Another big tool in the box, the more it's used the more data will be collected, the better the focus will become. One guideline that may be obvious is not to combine affected/affected, beyond that to work out the carriers towards clear. Again somewhat paralleling responsible use of vWd info. This is within the limits of my understanding based on the presentation. I will digest the published work when it is available and discuss it with you then.
Hope all is well with you and your dogs!

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Unread postby bmgillespie » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:50 am

Ronindobe wrote:Hey Bryant,
Yes as far as this specific gene mutation is concerned it shakes out very similarly to vWd in inheritance, except being autosomal dom instead of recessive for expression. This includes the potentials of variable penetrance, also witnessed in vWd. But add to this that this may not be and is probably not the only pathway or gene involved in what is NOT a discrete, one dimensional disease. Most "confirmed" deaths by DCM have not been exhaustively investigated in the histopathology or DNA. Perhaps this will happen more now or at least in studies. They've cracked the egg but not yet made an omlet, but some things may happen faster now. Another big tool in the box, the more it's used the more data will be collected, the better the focus will become. One guideline that may be obvious is not to combine affected/affected, beyond that to work out the carriers towards clear. Again somewhat paralleling responsible use of vWd info. This is within the limits of my understanding based on the presentation. I will digest the published work when it is available and discuss it with you then.
Hope all is well with you and your dogs!

8)


Thank for the explanation, the dogs are coming along great. My girl turned 2 and the boys will turn 2 within the next month. So, it is time for all the testing to begin, which means money to be spent :(
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Unread postby Sanja » Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:44 am

EVALUATION FOR THE CANINE DILATED CARDIOMYOPATHY MUTATION

Dilated Cardiomyopathy Mutation (DCM) is a form of heart disease in the Doberman Pinscher dog. It is inherited and our laboratory has identified a mutation responsible for the gene in some Doberman Pinscher. However, it should be noted that in human beings with the same disease, there are many different genetic mutations which can cause this disease. We do not yet know if this is the only mutation in the Doberman Pinscher or if there will be many different mutations. Please keep in mind that we are continually learning about this disease and recommendations will be altered as we obtain more information.

Currently our interpretation of the test is:
Negative results (-/-):
The absence of the mutation in this dog, DOES NOT mean that it will never develop the disease. It means that it does not have the only known mutation that can cause the disease in the dog at this time.
Positive Results:
Dogs that are positive for the test will not necessarily develop significant heart disease and die from the disease. Some dogs will develop a very mild form of the disease and will live quite comfortably, some may need treatment.
Importantly, breeding decisions should be made carefully. At this time we have do not yet know what percentage of Doberman Pinscher will be positive for the mutation. However, removal of a significant number of dogs from the breeding population could be very bad for the Doberman Pinscher breed. Remember that dogs that carry this mutation also carry other important good genes that we do not want to lose from the breed.

Positive Heterozygous (+/-) (1 copy of the mutated gene and 1 copy of a normal gene) Dogs that are positive heterozygous should be carefully evaluated for signs of disease (Holter monitor and an echocardiogram). If abnormalities are detected, possible treatment options should be discussed with your veterinarian. Adult dogs that do not show signs of disease and that have other positive attributes could be bred to mutation negative dogs. Puppies may be screened for the mutation and over a few generations, mutation negative puppies may be selected to replace the mutation positive parent and gradually decrease the number of mutation positive dogs in the population.
Positive Homozygous (+/+) (2 copies of the mutated gene). We recommend not breeding the homozygous dogs. Dogs that are homozygous for the mutation appear to have more significant disease and will certainly pass on the mutation.
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Unread postby Sanja » Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:45 am

First result I know - for a Croatian bred dog named MERLIN of BLACKMAGIC LAND (Grant di Villa Conte x Gipsy of Blackmagic Land) - NEGATIVE (-/-)!
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Unread postby Ronindobe » Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:58 pm

You say "our" lab.... assuming you are not part of the Meurs group...have you identified a different gene mutation involved or the same one being tested for by Washington State University??
In either case, best wishes for your endeavors in this area.

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Unread postby Sanja » Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:02 pm

Ronindobe wrote:You say "our" lab.... assuming you are not part of the Meurs group...have you identified a different gene mutation involved or the same one being tested for by Washington State University??
In either case, best wishes for your endeavors in this area.

8)


Nooo, copy/paste from THE Lab's source 8) ... a lot of people seems not to undarstend possible results so I think this is OK to be presented here...
I find very interesting fact that "big" Breeders don't say even a word about this test?! But no worries, there will be a lots of Europeans who will test all dogs so the "pedigree puzzle" will indicate status of famous studs.
Personaly I belive some of "Big" will test dogs but will announce only negative results; as they did for vWD (advertised only "clears" :roll: ).
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Unread postby Weinberge » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:05 pm

1.
Sanja wrote:First result I know - for a Croatian bred dog named MERLIN of BLACKMAGIC LAND (Grant di Villa Conte x Gipsy of Blackmagic Land) - NEGATIVE (-/-)!


We need a OFICIAL list under signature of Doctor Meurs.
Otherwise anyone can said anything .

-Nothing personal. Congratulation.

2.
Sanja wrote:Personaly I belive some of "Big" will test dogs but will announce only negative results; as they did for vWD (advertised only "clears" :roll: ).


NO !NO ! Clear mean ONLY -/- !
Must to presente the exactly RESULT not like "ZTP" in preparation.

P.S.
Sanja wrote:I find very interesting fact that "big" Breeders don't say even a word about this test?!


Why you named them "Big Breeders" ? We will see soon how "big" they are. :lol:
Last edited by Weinberge on Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:23 pm

Sanja wrote: there will be a lots of Europeans who will test all dogs so the "pedigree puzzle" will indicate status of famous studs.


Right . The "pedigree puzzle " will indicate status of famous studs .
For help the PUZZLE maybe all of you need the personal pedigree program .
Download, unzip and read install instructions.
Here the free pedigree program (valid 7 days)
http://dl.transfer.ro/transfer_ro-24oct-da1dde72.zip

Note: regarding dog details , the program when recognise the "DCM" word in health box will paint the box in red .
Then:
-write the DCM test +/- and +/+ on health textbox .
-for avoid to paint the pedigree box in red color , write the DCM test -/- on titles text-box .
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