ROmanian dobermanns - looking to the future

Unread postby Camelot1 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:37 pm

also if you look at the breeds orgin asfar as temperament issues ...while refining the looks ..the greyhound and terrier ...gave prey drives ...also brought the nervous sharp problems that can occur within the breed ....while the stronger more stable mastiff orgin gave the harder protective type ..the dobermann is a mixture of all ...possibly why never be looks free of faults
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Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:46 am

Camelot

Something it is not very logic in your argumentation .
You said that this problems are comed from greyhound. But majority of problems are molosoidal problems . Maybe the greyhounds have maximum 76 cm in tall, but they have not molosoidal characters : heavy bones , bulck craniums and body structure, etc. More that, from my knowledge DCM and other ills have not the highest incidance in Greyhounds . But in Great-Dane / Boxer and other molosoidal races, YES.

The fast growing and body heay structure , the bulck craniums , deep stop (where you saw a greyhound with bulk cranium and deeeppppp molosoidal stop ? ) and precar health , in my opinion are comed from a molosoidal infusion .

One more question...Why past Romanian dogs do not presente that problems before ? They haved a medium tall , never over 72 , always black or brown color (I was first breeder which I obtained blue pupies after I used 2 imported bloodlines), they never has deep heads stop (on contrary , sometime they need more stop ) and in general they haved a good healt, was very longevive and has a wanderfull character .

The character is changed too , many of actual dobes are to nervouse or to low in character , have not fantastic character for family, have not fantastic power of adaptability, fast reactions and incredible smartness , have not REAL guard instinct , the sportive biting don't mean that they have real guard instinct , they don't know to smile (real) when are happy.... .

Then , I CAN SAY WITH PRECISION that existed a HUGE dfferance in second when the Forell and Frankenhorst lines entered in Romania .

Then, after all that discussions , is justified to ask WHO ARE THE ORIGINAL ?
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Unread postby BasKal » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:12 am

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Unread postby Camelot1 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:09 pm

hi alin
i never said the problems come from the greyhound ....i said he brought many good things to the breed ...including speed of course ....but brought the weaker character ....the harder character i believe must have come from the mastiff side ..most properly why the early dogs were much sharper ...harder ....because they had the mastiff blood combined with the prey driven hunting dogs ....people speak about having to improve character ..maybe can to some extend but most properly due to the greyhound influence there always maybe weakeness ..

.i believe the dobermann is in general more a prey driven dog due to the manchester and tan terrier ...however all this talk about improving character aswell ...i have always owned a dobermann that would protect ....some in a more meaning way than others ..,.

i also agree with you that the bulk heads is a mastiff trait .....the perfect dobermann is most properly the balance of the mastiff with the terrier /hunting blood .....but more towards the terrier /hunting ...i believe this is what Herr Palmer had achieved with cito v furstenfeld ....the body was elegant ....there was greyhound influence i believe there coming from lump ...,,,the head with strength but elegance .....the problems occur when you get the dobermann too much one-sided....too much mastiff ...and too much terrier .....i believe also that the smaller dobermann more suitable to working people is more terrier influenced ,,,its more prey driven .....basically your getting a terrier ,,,,and the other extreme the more heavier dobermann your getting the more rottweiller influence .....the ideal as said is the harmony of the 2 ........something easier said than done........
getting back to furstenfeld ...even though i believe he had achieved a perfect balance .... achieved the perfect dobermann ......sometimes you would see the narrow chest due to the greyhound influence ..
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Unread postby Camelot1 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:36 pm

to also add about the balance ...as i previously had said if you see chico v forrell ...as with the more mastiff traits ....with his big bones .,substance...bulk head ...wide ..deep cheat ,,,,and lump .and vello ..as more the balanced hunting/terrier with mastiff blood controlled .....thats why maybe some breeders prefer the balance of furstenfeld x forrell ......because its the mix .......too much chico ..you see the heavy coats ....white hairs ...bulk heads ....too much furstenfeld ...start to narrow chests ..long greyhound style bodies
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Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:54 pm

Now..Valencia becomed the Weinberge Avatar . Always was .
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Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:14 pm

Camelot1 wrote: i never said the problems come from the greyhound ....i said he brought many good things to the breed ...including speed of course ....but brought the weaker character ....the harder character i believe must have come from the mastiff side ..most properly why the early dogs were much sharper ...harder ....because they had the mastiff blood combined with the prey driven hunting dogs ....people speak about having to improve character ..maybe can to some extend but most properly due to the greyhound influence there always maybe weakeness ..



Dear Camelot, the dobermann character MUST to come from ORIGINAL not from other races infusion , especial NOT from molosoids .
I think we need to search the truth inside of our dobermanns , not to find comparations with other races ...

About the reste what you said, probable you have right , all the problems appeared because Furstenfeld/Forell desequilibrum .
In same time , I am enforced to accept that Furstenfeld dobermanns phisically evoluted (advanced) ussing Forell (and viceversa is true) , but unfortunately the health price and genepool destruction was too big .

I think the last period of time is the first time when Furstenfeld get recognition (in breeders mentality) of his qualities and his HUGE role in modern breeding.
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Unread postby Camelot1 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:20 pm

Alin

when i speak of the mastiff i speak of the original dobermann influence of the butchers dog ,...which i should imagine was a harden type of dog .....i would say the manchester, and tan terrier ....added extreme prey drives in the beginning along with the harden butchers dogs character....
which then must have produced a sharper dog ..ready to bite anything that moved
.the greyhound must have soften the dog ...however there known to be protective to there master ...but more on the softer side ....also the Weimeraner

and gordon setter must have soften its character aswell ....however these are all prey driven dogs

i have also seen the beaucron influence ...in the head ,and also this dog may also bring the wavy coat ....these 2 dogs the butchers dog , and latter beaucron influenced the heavier build
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Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:03 pm

Camelot1 wrote:Alin

when i speak of the mastiff i speak of the original dobermann influence of the butchers dog ...


I think that dobermann race support more molosoidal influence than initial butchers dogs influence ....Otherwhise if all dobermanns have the same ascendance and genetical omogenity , how can you explain so huge diferrances between that historical two bloodlines ?

Some sources talk about that .
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Unread postby BasKal » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:04 pm

OMG - Alin, the first "dobermanns" had much more "mastiff" than the present - when you will understand this?
I dont say that "more mastiff" is a good thing - just it is what it was.

The Manchester and Greyhound have enormous prey drive and their influence may is possitive in this area, regarding the sporting part of the character. Morphologically many bad things came from Greyhoynd - large and roynd eyes, lack of Parallelism, light bone, light muzzlle and jaw, when its gennes are disproportionally present in an individual. The brother of the mother of Lump was many times described as a Greyhound with dobermann color - some judges didnt believe that he was a pure bred dobermann.

"Yet these intersections, and not only with Manchester, continued until about 30 years, so that in 1952 in Utrecht, a Dobe brown, DIRK VON KLOCKENHOF (mother's brother of Ch World Lump HAGENSTOLZ VON) was disqualified. The reason: the dog looked more like a Gleyhound than a Dobe and the judge did not believe he had a pedigree Dobermann. "
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Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:58 pm

BasKal wrote:"Yet these intersections, and not only with Manchester, continued until about 30 years, so that in 1952 in Utrecht, a Dobe brown, DIRK VON KLOCKENHOF (mother's brother of Ch World Lump HAGENSTOLZ VON) was disqualified. The reason: the dog looked more like a Gleyhound than a Dobe and the judge did not believe he had a pedigree Dobermann. "


Again this stupid accousation about Furstenfeld bloodline !
If you simply study the parents of DIRK VON KLOCKENHOF , they was ALEX V. KLEINWALDHEIM and ADDI V. HAGENSTOLZ .

Alex was the base of ALL modern dobermanns .

ADDI V. HAGENSTOLZ parents was DIETER V. WILLERSEE and ASTA V. GROSS HAGEN . They was ancestors of GERMANIA bloodline, ELENDONK and FORELL !

Then your theory , if is true, they are strong present and in Forell bloodline , then their presance can be expanded to entire dobermann breed !
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Unread postby Weinberge » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:21 pm

The discussion was extremly interesting and all of us bring many arguments in discussion, then , I hope with your acceptance, I partial copied that statements in facebook on the next link
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/prof ... 1220029032
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Unread postby Camelot1 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:35 pm

hi Baskal

Yes I agree the round eyes would also come from the greyhound ....but it brought the height + speed + length of muzzle .+ elegance ....
faults i agree if not in -balance would be narrow chests ,,too long in back ...too much tuck-up ...heads /muzzles too fine ...u/j lacking strength ...
but if used correctly would balance the mastiff blood

which also the manchester and tan terrier did ......... i read the manchester and tan terrier also earlier on had a fault of poppy eyes ,,,but they corrected it to get the more almond eye ,,,,,,,,.asfar as Lump ..i read the same ...however he was balanced imo ...asfar as looks ... ..i would say dogs with the big wide chests+ ..big tan markings ...are traits from the butchers dog
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Unread postby BasKal » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:07 am

Lump was great - his "uncle" had a greyhound appearance. This can happen even today in every line due to some unfortunate combination of genes. Many 2nd class dobs from good breedings ( not every pup even from "top" litters is show quality ) have at least some of the usual greyhound faults.

The Greyhound influence was both good and bad.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:55 am

Then...
If the greyhound influence on dobemann race comed much before than time of Furstenfeld breeder, if that genes some time appear and today...WHY WAS ACCOUSED FURSTENFELD THAT HE BREED GREYHOUNDS Because one ancestor of his line look like a greyhound ? This ancestor parents are present in Germania , Forell and Elendonk pedigrees too !!!

And why he losted his breeding right in Germany ? because he was a breederr which put accent on NATIVE DOBERMANN CHARACTER and don't accept the training industry and trained ZTP ?

P.S. His product Wello passed 35 times the German Korung !
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