ROmanian dobermanns - looking to the future

Unread postby Camelot1 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:51 pm

no it was said herr palmer owned a greyhound ..therefore maybe he added it again ....vello passed his sch3 .,,,35 x ....mind you this just seems like number ..doing it for the enjoyment of it ...as its too many times ....the dv wanted the ztp in place .....not all breeders had the knowledge of the dogs like herr palmer ...he knew where to get the working blood if he needed it ,,,,,,,,,

,the dobermann it seems if uncropped also tends to have more hound type ears ...the hounds in his blood must have influenced this ,...also i think the u/j along with the beaucron ...and dane ....as the greyhound and manchester terrier have weak u/j
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Unread postby BasKal » Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:31 am

The present genetic structure of the dobermann breed is far more important than this small minded war about Forel - Furstenfeld and the politics of another era.
The presence of the Greyhound blood in the breed predates Furstenfeld by far.
I dont think that Palmer used Greyhounds.

There is a story that he had thought, or proposed to use a Faraoh Hound to produce naturally erect ears in the dobermann - Faraoh Hound is a sight hound like the Greyhoynd but has erect ears. I dont think that he did it.
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Unread postby Camelot1 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:07 pm

no i dont believe he used greyhound either ,,,,just the same as i done believe massimo used dane .....it would take along time to erradicate such dogs ..even more so a dane ...there heads are absotuely massive esp in italy .....

.however what i think is the weaker muzzle ...weaker underjaws the dogs have more greyhound ,and manchester terrier blood ....and the stronger muzzles tended to come from the blood of the hunting dogs .. esp used such as the english setter, and weimaraner....and quite possibly the great dane going back ...i think thats where the dobermanns hound dog ears came fromalso ,,and the slightly droopy lips

i think the tendancy of greyhound to show in furstemfeld came from lump ... it was said that otto goeller was the one who intro greyhound in the blood ..........

though herr palmer still got good results because lump was possibly the best dobermann without doubt at that time ,,,,,and herr palmer had a powerful bitch in carmen
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Unread postby jotunheim » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:33 pm

I suggest you read up on the research findings, from respectively 2004 and 2009 - these could provide answeres to your questions and speculations.
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Unread postby Camelot1 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:44 pm

sorry gordon setter i meant ..you can see the strong muzzle and u/j and where the hound dog ears came from .....from what source bitten? have they done dna research now?

i just found this by avi on here
it seems it was otto goeller who mentioned about the manchester terrier producing a british type of dobermann by its use ......also seems dogs that carry the more prey driven blood of the manchester terrier ..tend to be how the working type look to this day ...it be intersting to see if this type has the more petal ears than the more common hound dog ears aswell
http://www.dobermann-review.com/info_li ... errier.php
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Unread postby Weinberge » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:05 pm

after all that infussions over original... how can somebody to said that the MtDNA is the same on all bloodlines ?
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Unread postby BasKal » Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:13 am

In the case that the other races dogs were used as stallions on females descending from the original females of Luis, yes the mtDNA will be the original.
I think that the situation is more mixed than that.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:35 pm

BasKal wrote:In the case that the other races dogs were used as stallions on females descending from the original females of Luis, yes the mtDNA will be the original.
I think that the situation is more mixed than that.


If...but you can not be sure on that..
Anyway...Lois Dobermann has many dobermanns and females ..not only one...and not obligatory with same genetic and we don't know exactly what races he used ...
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Unread postby BasKal » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:14 am

The traditional concept is that he had only one female line - an article about this is written in the AIAD magazine, based on information of one son of him.
In reality there are more than one female - mtDNA lines offcourse, so, some may are not original.

We dont know exactly the original races he used, but the appearance of the first dobermanns points to the butchers dog and the german pinscher.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:05 am

BasKal wrote:The traditional concept is that he had only one female line - an article about this is written in the AIAD magazine, based on information of one son of him.
In reality there are more than one female - mtDNA lines offcourse, so, some may are not original.

We dont know exactly the original races he used, but the appearance of the first dobermanns points to the butchers dog and the german pinscher.


From your info...do you think all Luis dobermanns was ONLY black ??
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Unread postby Weinberge » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:28 pm

I find a answer in one articole : "He(Louis Dobermann) was concerned with character rather than conformation. His requirement was to create a watchful, sharp, brave and intelligent dog. He wanted a guard dog with a strong mouth, a good nose, courage, hardness nd a highly developed protective instinct. We know he succeeded. From the beginning, his dogs were known regionally as "Dobermann's Hunde". They gained a solid reputation for harsh strength of character and an ability to hunt, bite and kill vermin. Herr Dobermann crossed several types of dogs but did not keep records (there were no pure bred dogs at that time) and there is little agreement on the origins of the dobermann.
Herr Dobermann's son tells us his father had a clever and fearless dog named "Schnupp" who he later mated with a very keen protection bitch named Bismark (later called Bisart). Bisart's puppy's were black with rust markings. One named "Pinko" had a natural bob tail and produced some blue puppies. "
For conformity :http://www.blitzkrieger.com/breedhistory.html
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Unread postby Weinberge » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:28 pm

I do not understand why Citto Citone is again in first row of DR "For sale" section because I don't push-up the announcement because he is not for sale anymore .
Even his (Co)owner will left again in Spain to work, even is not for show or working more trained , he will remain in kennel near his Sonny. He have more than 200 Weinberge names in pedigree and is a D'acciaio like father of my Avatar (picture) male. This confer to him the genetical right to ENTER in my Arena bloodline family , near Diamante Furstenfelds . Others , have NOT this right .

His Sonny already is a family member and when I was enforced to choice , I choiced to protect Sonny because the story "must go on". Fortunately the problem was solved for Citto and for his powerfull Sonny.

Many thanks to persons which manifest interest regard him.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:28 pm

And this is a little demo for persons which said that D'acciaio have no power...
If they have doubts ahead , I invite them to presente MUNDIAN and hear FURSTENFELD sound .

PS A true D'acciaio can be only Quinn Nobili Nati and a pure Citone . The rest are SUROGATES . Like coffe from comunist era . Who do not believe that, can search maternal the Mt-DNA :wink:

PPS .When I will NEVER enter in IDC Arena of death with last descendants of D'acciaio , Weinberge and Furstenfeld to be judged by.... who ?!
There , I have nothing to learn, nothing to win.

PPPS.What value can have a gold leash which carry a SUROGATE ?

In picture Sonny del Citto
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Unread postby Weinberge » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:54 pm

...
Last edited by Weinberge on Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:09 am

Precisation: not all Citone dogs are D'acciaio's. For example Zoe , daughter of Golda Frankenhorst was not a D'acciaio. She was Wiblishauser female and borned Z litter under Frankenhorst name.
Many top studs carry OLIVE BANMBY PRIDE via Frankenhorst Mt'DNA .

A D'acciaio is a D'acciaio.
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