In Search of Oldest Living Dobermann

In search of oldest living dobermann

Unread postby may » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:18 pm

Sorry for delay in replying.

Strathmill Always is 16 years old.

I will attach photo and pedigree shortly.


Regards,

May
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Unread postby Darius » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:41 pm

wow May thats fantastic,,gongratulations. :)
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Re: In search of oldest living dobermann

Unread postby bmgillespie » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:45 am

may wrote:Sorry for delay in replying.

Strathmill Always is 16 years old.

I will attach photo and pedigree shortly.


Regards,

May


That is incredible and may very will be the oldest living Dobermann in the world.
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Unread postby Laska1353 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:11 pm

BMW Bavarija iz Zoosfery - will be 11 years in 3 months. Still healthy and full of live....
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:51 pm

Laska1353 wrote:BMW Bavarija iz Zoosfery - will be 11 years in 3 months. Still healthy and full of live....


Good to hear :D , Hopefully we will see more names here.
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Unread postby keyala » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:29 pm

I was contacted today by an owner of one of my dogs his name is "Keyalas Fire Jet" he is 15 years old & still enjoying life although has gone very grey .
On his fathers side he goes back to Baron Bryan & on the mothers side is my Bilsam the Thriller who goes back to Vom Ahrtal.
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About the relative significance of list of long lived dogs

Unread postby Sonia Dobe » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:51 pm

The statistics of long-lived dogs are fine as curious cases but we can not extend its significance to broad families, except in very rare cases when the proportion of long-lived dogs is statistically significant and extensive to a high percentage of entire lineage as for Jotunheim’s dogs . On the contrary within a lineage of long lived dogs there are short lived dogs but relative smaller proportions because life span within a goup or lineage trends to show a normal distribution of frequencies.

We must not forget that long lived dogs from non healthy lineages can produce high proportions of non healthy dogs because are carriers of deleterious genes. Even proportions of affected dogs by genetic diseases, as DCM, on the offspring can be higher for a long lived sire than for short lived sire. Transmission of genetic diseases depends of genes provided by both sire and dam sides, but for popular sires with a higher number of offspring can be considered independent of dam input because diverse dam are implicated in the statistical of offspring. Curiously the comparison of incidence of DCM in the offspring of two contemporary popular sires: Eick v.d.. Rappenau (1987-1994, dead by DCM) (incidence of DCM in the offspring=7.5%) and Prinz v. Norden Stamm (1988-2001- a long lived dog) (incidence of DCM in the offspring=10.4%) which illustrates that life span is only one variable in the complex equation of survival.

Analyzing the European Dobermann population structure on a sample of 129 litters born 2009, overall sample are related by ascendancy with only three major ancestors in three significant clusters (figure 1). Main group (79.5% litters) include conformation dogs and/or ZTP grouped in two clusters related with two popular sires: Cluster 1 include dogs of majority related with Graaf Quirinus v. Neerlands Stam (GQvNS), and less with Prinz v. Norden Stamm (PvNS), Cluster 2 include dogs of related in the same extension with Graaf Quirinus v. Neerlands Stam, and Prinz v. Norden Stamm. Cluster 3 minority group (20.5% litters) includes pure working dogs related with Bingo v. Ellendonk (BvE) and much lesser with Graaf Quirinus v. Neerlands Stam, and Prinz v. Norden Stamm. Population structure of population born 2009 illustrates the “fetish power” of pedigree for breeders, and clusters size show that conformation is the goal of majority of breeders.

Image

COI on seven generation pedigree of sample of litters born 2009 shows a positive biased distribution of frequencies (Skewness= +0.926) (not normal) which illustrates that endogamy is a dominant practice in matings (figure 2) (Average COI in sample=9.31%) . Good conformation is the first breeding goal for breeders and line-breeding and close-breeding based on pedigree data is a cultural practice of mating system common in professional and regular breeders who register several litters per year (Leroy et al. 2007).

Image

No significant difference in a Student t-test is observed in average COI between groups (Sig. two tailed = 0.257) (table 1). However dogs related with Bingo v. Ellendonk (Cluster 3) shows higher fitness (average litter size-ALS*) than dogs of two others clusters and significant differences in a Student t-test have been observed (Sig. two tailed = 0.001) which illustrates that selection for utility is an advantage in terms of genetic fitness over the selection for anatomical traits.

Application of general rules of reduction of COI for increasing diversity implicates that dogs of Cluster 3 (minority) must be mating with dogs of Cluster 1 or 2 and low available diversity can be loss to conform a homogeneous group. Likewise, this genetic advantage of dogs related with Bingo v. Ellendonk, despite the high average COI of this group (10.55%), may be lost when dogs of Cluster 3 are mating with dogs of Cluster 1 or 2.

Image
* Litter size is referred to realised litter size (registered puppies)

The conclusions of the analysis of population structure and fitness for the population born 2009, suggests the possibility that average life span (LSP) may differentially affect dogs of both functional groups (working dogs related with Bingo v. Ellendong and show-dogs related with Graaf Quirinus v. Neerlands Stam, and/or Prinz v. Norden Stamm. The inability to perform the analysis of average life span on the same sample of dogs born in 2009, determines that I did a statistical analysis on a separate sample including 281 records of dogs born between 1990 and 2008 belonging to both groups (231 show dogs/50 working dogs). Each record includes: name of the dog, dates of birth and death, life span (LSP), bloodline group pedigree (Working dogs or Show dogs), and inbreeding coefficient COI.

Difference in a Student t-test for average COI between groups of this last sample (Sig. two tailed = 0.044) is in the limit of significance at 0.05 level, but is higher for Bingo v. Ellendonk related dogs (Average COI=12.54%) than for Graaf Quirinus v. Neerlands Stam, and/or Prinz v. Norden Stamm group (Average COI=10.41%).

Comparison of Kaplan-Meier survival curves (figure 3) for dogs related with both groups show that difference between groups is significant (Mantel-Cox log rank Chi-square=12.685; Sig.=0.000), and from an early age the survival factor is lower for show-dogs group in all age classes. Average life expectancy is +1.437 years higher for BvE related dogs (Average LSP=8.08 years) than for GQvNS and/or PvNS group (Average LSP=6.64 years). For long lived dogs belonging to age classes with LSP>10 years, difference is also evident between groups: Cum. Survival =16.5% for BvE related dogs, and Cum. Survival =6.3% for GQvNS and/or PvNS group.

Image

Analysis of variance from bivariate correlations for litter size where dog is born, COI of litter and life span variables within each group not shows significant correlations in both cases.

A paradigm in conservation science predicts that isolated populations will experience reductions in individual genetic fitness due to inbreeding depression. However it’s also true that inbreeding and purging affects positively fitness and life expectancy in this cluster of dogs related with Bingo v. Ellendong specifically. Recessive deleterious mutations, with positive effects on traits linked to fitness, are purged more easily by selection in small or inbred populations than in populations with random mating (Charlesworth and Charlesworth, 1999).

It’s clear that both genetic advantages on fitness and life expectancy of dogs related with Bingo v. Ellendong are linked to accomplish both simultaneous conditions: dogs strong related by kinship with Bingo v. Ellendong and selected for working.

References:

Leroy G. , Verrier E. , Wisner-Bourgeois C , Rognon X (2007). Breeding goals and breeding practices of French dog breeders: results from a large survey. Revue Méd. Vét., 158(10), 496-503.

Charlesworth B., Charlesworth D..(1999). The genetic basis of inbreeding depression.
Genet. Res. 74:329-340.
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:01 pm

Very interesting, thank you for the post. I wish they would have used Gino in study also.
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:31 pm

Do you know the comparison (numbers) of off spring for Pinz & Eick. I know there is or was a site that stated off spring of popular studs. Also, 6% and 10% especially for Prinz are really not that bad of numbers, certainly not the dooms day numbers that are being presented for our breed. We will never get rid of DCM and if we can keep it at these numbers, the outlook is not that bad. Dobermanns like people will die and must die or it would be to many of them and us. We need to come to grips that dog years are at least 7 times that of ours, so even at 9 years, that is 72 and if you believe we are only suppose to get 70 years, I will be happy to get my 70 years :D. If they determine what causes DCM, then what, people are not going to stop breeding dogs, they simply will not get them tested or hide results. AS they mentioned as long as they are big show winners they will sell. I have seen dogs on here with all of the health test still drop dead and I had a friend whose dog had all the test current and still died. I think we should breed responsible but we need to come to grips that not only Dobermanns but dogs are going to die. All the studies in the world is not going to change that. Enjoy them while you have them and then get another, they are animals not human beings.
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Unread postby jotunheim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:00 pm

Average life expectancy is +1.437 years higher for BvE related dogs (Average LSP=8.08 years) than for GQvNS and/or PvNS group (Average LSP=6.64 years). For long lived dogs belonging to age classes with LSP>10 years, difference is also evident between groups: Cum. Survival =16.5% for BvE related dogs, and Cum. Survival =6.3% for GQvNS and/or PvNS group.

GQvNS & PvNS = average lifespan of 6,64 years
BvE = average lifespan of 8,08 years

GQvNS & PvNS = survival of 6,3%
BvE = survival of 16,5%
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Unread postby Sonia Dobe » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:16 pm

bmgillespie wrote:Do you know the comparison (numbers) of off spring for Pinz & Eick. I know there is or was a site that stated off spring of popular studs. Also, 6% and 10% especially for Prinz are really not that bad of numbers, certainly not the dooms day numbers that are being presented for our breed. We will never get rid of DCM and if we can keep it at these numbers, the outlook is not that bad. Dobermanns like people will die and must die or it would be to many of them and us. We need to come to grips that dog years are at least 7 times that of ours, so even at 9 years, that is 72 and if you believe we are only suppose to get 70 years, I will be happy to get my 70 years :D. If they determine what causes DCM, then what, people are not going to stop breeding dogs, they simply will not get them tested or hide results. AS they mentioned as long as they are big show winners they will sell. I have seen dogs on here with all of the health test still drop dead and I had a friend whose dog had all the test current and still died. I think we should breed responsible but we need to come to grips that not only Dobermanns but dogs are going to die. All the studies in the world is not going to change that. Enjoy them while you have them and then get another, they are animals not human beings.


I wish your dog a long life, but I've talked about families, not individual cases. In your case your dog's ancestries on the paternal side (Gino Gomez del Citone) belongs to the cluster just more dangerous (Prinz v. Norden Stamm) and other dogs with similar ascendancy have not been so lucky….. With my data I tried to communicate what lineage of available dogs are healthier, if it is useful to someone.

Available database of longevity and cause of death for Dobermann is reduced. Otherwise available data of longevity and cause of death are biased; in Nordic and Central Europe dogs the number of data is higher, but lower for dogs from South or Eastern Europe where “opacity” is more evident. Estimate value of prevalence of DCM for this time (1994) is 33.1% and data of incidence annotated for Eick v.d.. Rappenau (incidence of DCM in the offspring=7.5%) and Prinz v. Norden Stamm (incidence of DCM in the offspring = 10.4%) clearly underestimate the true incidence and its value is only relative. To give you a better idea of all I will say that for another popular sire of this period, Gero v.d. Mooreiche (1989-2001) strong related with Bingo v. Ellendong, the incidence of DCM in the offspring was 0 %... Do you understand who is who?

Likewise the actual prevalence (58.2%) I think that underestimate the true prevalence. A juvenile form of DCM has been described in Doberman dogs (Volmar et al., 2003) and neonatal losses from this cause are out the scope of prevalence trials. In another investigation (Chatdarong et al., 2007), the neonatal losses (difference between the litter size at birth and live litter size) for Dobermann (11.0%) exceed that other breeds considered in the study: German shepherd dog (9.1%), Labrador retriever (8.5%) and Rottweiler (7.0%), for identical environmental conditions (same breeding unit of military dogs).

Each one can be comforted as he wants, but the actual average life span in our breed is embarrassing. Health and life expectancy has never been a selection criteria applied in the mating, except in few cases, but the anatomical features and success at conformation shows. Until we change this mindset, there is nothing to do, even if a reliable DNA or biomarker test became available.

Referring to anatomical traits, I do not understand why oversized, overweighed and short legged dogs with a mastiff tendency and exaggerated sloping top-line are promoted in conformation shows as winners. What is the reference? Standard or politics?

References:

Chatdarong K, Tummaruk P, Sirivaidyapong S, Raksil S. (2007). Seasonal and breed effects on reproductive parameters in bitches in the tropics: a retrospective study. J Small Anim Pract.;48(8):444-8.

Vollmar A, Fox PR, Meurs KM, Liu SK. (2003). Dilated cardiomyopathy in juvenile doberman pinschers. J Vet Cardiol.; 5(1): 23-27.
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Unread postby bmgillespie » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:02 am

I understand it was about families, also I have more than dog I have 4. I will not worry myself if or when any of them past or what they past from. I do not even do that for myself I am more concerned about my daughter), I just enjoy them and life everyday I wake up and if they are there that makes life that much better but if they are not, I will get another and life goes on. :D on another note I do not beleive everything I read, especially on studies like these where there are way to many variables.
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Oldest Living Dobermann

Unread postby may » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:22 pm

Sorry for the delay.

Picture of Jude (Strathmill Always) at 16.

Pedigree and family history to follow.

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Unread postby Weinberge » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:10 am

jotunheim wrote:Average life expectancy is +1.437 years higher for BvE related dogs (Average LSP=8.08 years) than for GQvNS and/or PvNS group (Average LSP=6.64 years)


Great ! 8.08 seem to be a best result ! Great !
I will die by laught. That dogs don't lived nor as a Romanian dobermann without pedigree, because the pedigree dobermanns endured the genocide under that ill bloodlines domination !

Is a evidance that 8 years average age mean 60% than normal age and mean VERY ILL BLOODLINES !
If you don't understood yet what mean GENOCIDE I will remember again the definition of the FCI breeding UNRESPECTED rule which ban the reproduction of ILL BLOODLINES (genetical) dogs and PROTECT THE GENETICAL DIVERSITY .

PENIBIL :lol:
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Unread postby jotunheim » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:42 pm

Weinberge wrote:
jotunheim wrote:Average life expectancy is +1.437 years higher for BvE related dogs (Average LSP=8.08 years) than for GQvNS and/or PvNS group (Average LSP=6.64 years)


Great ! 8.08 seem to be a best result ! Great !
I will die by laught. That dogs don't lived nor as a Romanian dobermann without pedigree, because the pedigree dobermanns endured the genocide under that ill bloodlines domination !

Is a evidance that 8 years average age mean 60% than normal age and mean VERY ILL BLOODLINES !
If you don't understood yet what mean GENOCIDE I will remember again the definition of the FCI breeding UNRESPECTED rule which ban the reproduction of ILL BLOODLINES (genetical) dogs and PROTECT THE GENETICAL DIVERSITY .

PENIBIL :lol:


Think you should choose your words more correctly when you make references.
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