What do you think about american Doberman?

Unread postby zedemar » Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:57 pm

Hello Carlos!

Yes, I guess the gallopp is not evaluated during ZTP or Körung.
For some champion titles one needs also a working title (VPG1/IPO1) and or ZTP.
Since the Dobermann is a working breed, I think it might be interesting for the spectators to see, for example the best 3 dogs in a class, doing some bitework.
Something similar one can see in Italy, Campionato Soziale AIAD.
Also this might point out the working character of the breed and might help to fill the trench abit between the working and show fraction of the breed.

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Unread postby LioudmilaSherman » Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:09 pm

LioudmilaSherman wrote:
Lex Luthor has been shown in USA at tne National DPCA Show in 2003:


A lot of his progeny have been shown at Westminster 2005. :)
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Lex Luthor

Unread postby Haus di Götterberg » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:03 pm

About the question that everybody wants to know if Lex Luthor is dead or not... :?:

The eternal doubt that even today we have about this dog I have to say the following..

In May, 2004 we have in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, the World Dog Show. A month before this show happen we could read daily in dobermann breeders site (http://www.dobermannbreeders.com/index.htm) that Lex Luthor was being prepared for his trainers for this important show...

Lex Luthor was inscribed in this show and did not appeared... His owner never said the reason… :smt102

After this show, many rumors about his death were said between all breeders here but never were confirmed by his owner...

I have some friends in Argentina who affirmed me that Lex Luthor died in 2004 when he was being physically prepared for this important show for his career... After all, it will be his gold chance to become World Champion! A title like this no dog can dispense... Specially being considered as the favorite to win... :shock:

A dobermann like Lex Luthor with a lot of fans in Brazil, the favorite dobermann to win in that show... Why he suddenly give up to participate? His great chance to obtain world champion's title... And considering his age… Maybe the last chance??

I think just his death could avoid that dog to participate of this very important show...

In 2005, the owner of Lex Luthor appeared on Dobermann National Show (in São Paulo, Brazil) with some of his dogs. In the same opportunity we had the first ZTP test in Brazil. The ZTP test and the National Show were judged by Mr. Hans Wiblishauser ... Lex Luthor was not between the dogs that Mr. Norberto brought to Brazil... :oops:

Other sons of Lex Luthor also died mysteriously in the last years... Catriel died after the Dobermann National Show in Brazil (Rio de Janeiro) in 2006... People told that he had hepatic problems... Sony V. Weissensee, a Brazilian Champion, died after being submitted on intensive training (according to his owner) to try to obtain his ZTP in Brazil... It seems that his long neck caused fatal problems in his cervical column... At least we had this informations of his owner that’s also a famous veterinarian... :?

It’s important to tell that Sony as well as another descendants of Lex Luthor that also took part in the first ZTP test in Brazil failed… :(
Just two imported European Dobermanns were able to obtain their ZTP…One from Altobello and other from Irinland kennels…

I think it´s time these breeders from Argentina inform us what really is happening with these dogs... :smilie46:
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Unread postby LF » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:20 am

Hello Elaine and Roberto!!

I`ve seen just few American dobs looking good as Lex Luthor and some of his progeny.
But even those dogs cannot be comparable with the ones you handle!
I`ve seen your homepage and say for sure you have the best bloodline that Brasil could have so far! :wink:
I`ve seen other good kennels on São Paulo and it´s very good to know that from now on the brazilians are looking for euro dobermanns as well. :D
We`ve now more options to get the real working dobermann! :smilie23:
I don`t give a shit for american dobes!!
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Unread postby micdobe » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:26 pm

Lex Luthor's pedigree comes from North America. In general the South American dogs are long bodied and short legged. As for their temperaments Lex Luthor tried to attack a neutral stranger in the WAE.
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Unread postby zedemar » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:04 pm

Lex Luthor tried to attack a neutral stranger in the WAE


And what does this tell you?
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american/euro

Unread postby derrik » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:24 am

hi read-America vs. Europe: Should the Breed be Split? this is from ray carlisle's web site. http://www.caradobe.com/amdobe.html there is alot of great information on his site.God bless.
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Unread postby BasKal » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:25 pm

No.
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Unread postby Rosamburg » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:56 pm

No. A breeder should have the option of using whatever dog they can to further their purpose. I also will also not deny that broadening the gene pool is a good idea. The issue that I personally would have is the probability/ potential of going backwards with working ability.

I must say this is one old post to be brought back to life. However it is good to see the forum start to come back to life.
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American Doberman vs European Dobermann

Unread postby TucsonDobieOwner » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:18 pm

I am an American. I was raised with Dobermanns in the States. However, the dogs I grew up with and the Dobermans produced today in America are NOT the same critters! Most of the Dobies I see produced here look like they are almost a sighthound. They are waif-like and truly do not resemble a 'working' dog anymore. The variations in size, weight, temp are all clear indicators that American breeders appear to have forgotten what breed-standard means.
For years I have said I want to purchase a dobie from a breeder but have been unable to locate any American lineage Dobermans that specialize in Schutzhund. Why is this? Because American breeders have bred OUT of their version of the Dobermann exactly what makes it so special!! The ability to perform the job it was developed to do... protection work.
In America the breed suffered so much bad publicity that I think breeders decided that instead of screening potential buyers for suitablity, they chose to re-create the breed srictly for PR purposes. The Dobie image may have improved here but the breed has suffered terribly as a result.
Almost all of the dog owners I know who plan to show would never think of training for obedience until after conformation titles are out of the way. Why? Because the dog might not win if he/she happened to 'sit' in the ring.
Obedience is an afterthought for most Americans and seldom occurs until after the owner encounters difficulty. It is little wonder that it is easier for most breeders to remove the working dog attitude than it is to train them right. There are never temp testing prior to showing. There are no AKC working trials to demonstrate the dogs are fit to breed... how on earth can anyone truly claim their show dog is breeding quality when only one demension of the breed standard is being judged?
Loving the Breed as I do I have only owned rescued Dobies that are the progeny of American breeders. I could not contribute to the down-fall of this great breed by supporting the questionable breeding practices here in the US.
I am currently preparing to import a real working lineage Dobie from Serbia. I feel 100% more confident in my ability to raise and train a Schutzhund dog that originated in an area that adheres to FCI standards. While it is true that some US lines have greater longevity there are also just as many that produce Wobblers-dogs that die around five.
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American Doberman vs European Dobermann

Unread postby TucsonDobieOwner » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:19 pm

I am an American. I was raised with Dobermanns in the States. However, the dogs I grew up with and the Dobermans produced today in America are NOT the same critters! Most of the Dobies I see produced here look like they are almost a sighthound. They are waif-like and truly do not resemble a 'working' dog anymore. The variations in size, weight, temp are all clear indicators that American breeders appear to have forgotten what breed-standard means.
For years I have said I want to purchase a dobie from a breeder but have been unable to locate any American lineage Dobermans that specialize in Schutzhund. Why is this? Because American breeders have bred OUT of their version of the Dobermann exactly what makes it so special!! The ability to perform the job it was developed to do... protection work.
In America the breed suffered so much bad publicity that I think breeders decided that instead of screening potential buyers for suitablity, they chose to re-create the breed srictly for PR purposes. The Dobie image may have improved here but the breed has suffered terribly as a result.
Almost all of the dog owners I know who plan to show would never think of training for obedience until after conformation titles are out of the way. Why? Because the dog might not win if he/she happened to 'sit' in the ring.
Obedience is an afterthought for most Americans and seldom occurs until after the owner encounters difficulty. It is little wonder that it is easier for most breeders to remove the working dog attitude than it is to train them right. There are never temp testing prior to showing. There are no AKC working trials to demonstrate the dogs are fit to breed... how on earth can anyone truly claim their show dog is breeding quality when only one demension of the breed standard is being judged?
Loving the Breed as I do I have only owned rescued Dobies that are the progeny of American breeders. I could not contribute to the down-fall of this great breed by supporting the questionable breeding practices here in the US.
I am currently preparing to import a real working lineage Dobie from Serbia. I feel 100% more confident in my ability to raise and train a Schutzhund dog that originated in an area that adheres to FCI standards. While it is true that some US lines have greater longevity there are also just as many that produce Wobblers-dogs that die around five.
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An old controversy

Unread postby Sonia Dobe » Tue May 11, 2010 3:12 pm

The comparison between American and European Dobermanns it’s a old controversy that is repeated time to time in all Dobermann forums, here and in the US, with the same result: a reaffirmation of the initial ideas or prejudices what implement the apartheid politics. Maybe it's time to talk less with the heart and more with the head.
The elucidation of the Canine genome demonstrates that all canine breeds are affected by a high level of homozygosis and linkage disequilibrium, associated with some common practices in the dogs breeding: founder effect, bottleneck in the population, popular sires and dams syndrome, inbreeding abuse and genetic drift. High level of homozygosis determines low effective population. In some cases, like the UK Boxer, the numbers are very worrying: a population of 45.000 dogs is equivalent to only 45 dogs!! (Calboli et al., 2008) Table 3 http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/179/1/593. The level of linkage disequilibrium in the Dobermann is similar to the Portuguese water dog (Gray et al., 2009) -Table 3- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2666515/, a breed with a very little population….
Among the main actual causes of this imbalance should be noted the conformation shows and the great influence of the show stars system. Popular sires are a major problem. In the best case all dogs have recessive deleterious genes that inbreeding can put in homozygosis soon or later. In other cases, included world famous studs in the two Atlantic sides, we know with certainty that some bloodlines carries genetic diseases, particularly dilated cardiomyopathy, and not as a diffuse risk but even with a strong Wright relationship coefficient of the studs with the affected dogs. Are we willing to accept restrictive rules which reduce the number of litters of a stud to only, for example, 6 in its life?
Genetic diseases are a big problem in the future survival of the Dobermann breed. While in the past there was a difference in the health status of both families trees, pro European Dobermanns, it is no longer true, except for von Willebrand disease and perhaps for hip dysplasia. Cancer, dilated cardiomyopathie, Volvulus or Wobbler syndrome affected more or less both families equally.
We like what we are accustomed to seeing and enjoying what the acquiescence of the affinity group. This is an issue of social empathy and of the imitative behavior. In this sense I agree with Dug Matson (Kansa Dobes). Objectively on average the Am. Dobermann has advantage in many conformation traits, except for the head construction, or can we accept also the illogical argument that a dog can be a well built dog but with a bad movement? With regards to the heads, not all European Dobermanns have good heads and we are seeing more dogs with brachycephalic tendency.
In temperament, I think there isn’t discussion, but no generic and categorical disqualifications are true. Not it’s true than all American Dobermanns have a weak temperament. For instance, Nello’s Lex Luthor was not exactly a friendly dog - something that earned him much criticism in the community of American breeders-, neither are some of their descendants, including the well-known Trotyl & Navajo de Black Shadow. Do not forget that the father is only half the inheritance of their offspring and the behavior isn’t a mendelian categoric trait, it is a quantitative trait with intermediate heritage between sire and dam. Just Dug Matson has progeny of Lex Luthor & Trotyl bloodline and he had beautiful and working dogs but cross with european bloodlines bitches, not with Am. bloodlines show bitches.
Lex Luthor die with 8.5 years old, not before or after the average longevity for the breed. His death is not mysterious (neumonic illness), just the business of selling his frozen semen (not cheap) could not continue if the dog was dead. FCI rules are. It was best to silence his death and continue the business.
There are market and power interests on both sides of the Atlantic, but, really is it ethical to admit that the average life of a Dobermann can be 8.5 years? Can we postpone the fight against genetic diseases for the benefit of the selection for the conformation or character? For the temperament we have more possibilities for improvement by selection, but much less for the conformation traits.
To improve a quantitative trait is necessary genetic additive variance, because otherwise we will have reached a limit in the selection response. Homozygous level in the breed is so high that the genetic variance within families is very low; there is not much genetic additive variance available to progress in the selection. Otherwise, the linkage disequilibrium (genes with limited recombination in the meiosis) is so high that for some genes we have also a pleiotropic effect in the heritage and it’s difficult to segregate some good and bad genes in the crossing.
The conformation shows are a big part of the problem but the market is the boss. The study of Calboli et al., 2008; http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/179/1/593 demonstrates also that the Greyhound, a breed selected for the functionality –race score-, preserve more heterozygosis than all the nine other breeds of its analysis, despite their very small population (the breed with the lowest population among the ten studied).
In the absence of mixed models (non linear models to Estimate Breeding Values- EBV for the whole traits) more than the phenotypic value, the main challenge now is to breed healthy dogs. The genomic differences within the two breed subpopulations (Wahlund effect) are a source of genetic variability that we can not miss. As Valencia indicated in this forum some time ago, we have lost an interesting genetic variability source when the old lines of the countries of Eastern Europe were mixed indiscriminately with the bloodlines of Western Europe. Do you think we can afford to lose the few opportunities we have left for improve the breed? Are you sure that is the apartheid the best politics now? As said Baskal before in this topic: NO![/url]
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Unread postby Weinberge » Tue May 11, 2010 4:10 pm

Sonia Dobe

I almost totally agreee with all your word.
You said very well :
"The elucidation of the Canine genome demonstrates that all canine breeds are affected by a high level of homozygosis and linkage disequilibrium, associated with some common practices in the dogs breeding: founder effect, bottleneck in the population, popular sires and dams syndrome, inbreeding abuse and genetic drift. High level of homozygosis determines low effective population. In some cases, like the UK Boxer, the numbers are very worrying: a population of 45.000 dogs is equivalent to only 45 dogs!! (Calboli et al., 2008) Table 3 http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/179/1/593. The level of linkage disequilibrium in the Dobermann is similar to the Portuguese water dog (Gray et al., 2009) -Table 3- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2666515/, a breed with a very little population…. "

My new calculations confirm this ideea . From 65.528 ancestors in 15 generations , only 1432 are different . The rest are THE SAME !
Ussing 3 simple mathematical law, result a 97.8% Homozigocy coefficient.
And this is a bloodline which have a big hereozigocy coefficient.

Regarding : "Genetic diseases are a big problem in the future survival of the Dobermann breed."
I agree. The homozygocy create a imense risk for breed when exist health problems , because exist the risk to fix-it forever. That already happened in a big popupation part.

Regarding "The conformation shows are a big part of the problem but the market is the boss "
I totally Agree. This market industry based on advertising and shows destroy dobermann breed.


Regarding:Lex Luthor die with 8.5 years old, not before or after the average longevity for the breed.
..... really is it ethical to admit that the average life of a Dobermann can be 8.5 years

My last calculations(sure, based on partial data) said this is true. Even exist bloodlines which have 5-6 years longevity, actual average age is around 8 . Maybe less, because we are missing many age informations.

Regarding "For the temperament we have more possibilities for improvement by selection, but much less for the conformation traits.
To improve a quantitative trait is necessary genetic additive variance, because otherwise we will have reached a limit in the selection response. Homozygous level in the breed is so high that the genetic variance within families is very low; there is not much genetic additive variance available to progress in the selection. Otherwise, the linkage disequilibrium (genes with limited recombination in the meiosis) is so high that for some genes we have also a pleiotropic effect in the heritage and it’s difficult to segregate some good and bad genes in the crossing. "


Excelent genetically analyse. You know verry well what mean a 'quantitative genetically trait'
We touch this actual point ussing/losting a imense past genetically reserves. I ask myself what will happened in future, because today don't exist so more reserves.

Regarding "As Valencia indicated in this forum some time ago, we have lost an interesting genetic variability source when the old lines of the countries of Eastern Europe were mixed indiscriminately with the bloodlines of Western Europe. "

Here you wrong. They was not mixed. Majority was eliminated from breeding stock and losted. In this mode, the race lost her best CHANCE .
Majority from the rest now are infected or genetically dominated without refresh posibilities.
This tendency continues and today proteged and promoted at high levels .

Anyway, congratulations for your analyse.One of the best which ever I read on a public discussion.

P.S. Sure..Specialists already said in their blogs my analysys data is false/wrong/not true, etc.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Wed May 12, 2010 8:54 am

The question remaining WHEN and WHO.
In my opinion the final point must be 'complette' (health+character +beauty) and unify all best bloodlines currents : West European, Est European, true Russian , true American. Because all of them have fantastic traits, unfortunately separattely.
The actual tendency go toward this unique point. But we we must to change that.
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To reflect

Unread postby Sonia Dobe » Wed May 12, 2010 1:47 pm

Estimated Valencia:
It is always a pleasure to debate with you
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