What do you think about american Doberman?

Unread postby jotunheim » Wed May 12, 2010 6:17 pm

These articles are all very intersting - but how do you expect to change the future, as what you are describing, has allready happend ...

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Unread postby Weinberge » Wed May 12, 2010 8:56 pm

jotunheim wrote:These articles are all very intersting - but how do you expect to change the future, as what you are describing, has allready happend ...

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Simply.
First, we already are not to the final point, even piramide is INVERSE and presure is IMENSE !

Second, first step is all breeders to understand the problem. I do not reffer to high levels -nobody can change their mind.
But I think normal breeders , simply dobermann lovers and a new breeders generation can change the way.

The change already is imense. Few years ago all breeders present like a positive thing DVIN inbreeding coefficients on again and again same ill dobermanns. Today nobody do that.

Few years ago every dobermann which was not on the trend was seen like a alien .
Today this is changed.

Few years ago , who have courage to talk about dangerouse direction was seen like a crazy person.
Today, in face of EVIDANCES, the truth was PARTIAL saied (unfortunattely after high level tragically deaths ) .

In last year, nobody talk soo much about IDC winner.
Breeders search solutions. Unfortunately solutions is verry rare today.
Because the problem is GENETICALLY.

Today strong voices criticise hard the dangerouse beauty .

Today , in face of EVIDANCES, politic have no so many force !

The new FCI breeding strategy is on right dobermann side and defend
genetically breed stock.
We need non political breeding, FREE breeding to increase race variability.

I think numerouse mans understood the truth, I heard new voices, more numerouse.

Is a imense step.
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Overcoming old obsessions

Unread postby Sonia Dobe » Thu May 13, 2010 3:45 pm

Previous considerations:
I am nothing optimistic and I am aware that this discussion will sleep early in the pit of oblivion. but…
Power relations in many Dobermann clubs and in the IDC not seem the best scenario to accept rules as these I propose below. Breed clubs are members’ societies and have legitimate worries about losing membership if the conditions of registration and control are too strict.
I do not believe too much in the conversion of some incendiaries into fire-fighters but we can not exclude than in the near future similar rules may be imposed in Europe by nationals’ higher authorities (governments and parliaments). Perhaps then it is too late. In fact similar rules are already active in some dog breed Clubs and Federations, especially in Nordic European countries.

Main rules:
- Revision of registration rules to prevent the registration of the offspring of any mating between first-degree and second-degree relatives. Any mating between parent and offspring, two siblings, grandparent and offspring or half siblings, should result in non-pedigree offspring. This would lead to a reduction in the rate of inbreeding and increase the genetic diversity.
- Revision of registration rules to limit the number of litters (6) that any male can sire (females obviously), by restricting registration to a maximum number per parent.
- Obligatory DNA identification of all registered dogs.
- Development of management plans for surveillance the incidence of inherited disorders and public access of data.
- Formation and accreditation of the judges about the importance of the welfare and promote the selection of health dogs in the shows.

Additional rules to introduce progressively:
- Not Ch. titles or IDC Ch. can be homologate without extensive screening tests for prioritised disorders in the winners.
- Introduction of dog breeder warranties or contracts which commit breeders to paying compensation for avoidable inherited disorders that develop in the dogs they sell.
- Introduction of welfare classes, in which dogs compete based purely on their health and quality of life.
- Development of evaluation schemes for EBV in cooperation with Genetics specialists.
- Make registration of pedigree dogs conditional upon both parents undergoing large screening tests for prioritised disorders. Affected dogs for the simple recessive genetic disorders are not accepted for registration (*).
(*) A problem in the fighting against recessive when the frequency of recessive allele is very high, as de von Willebrand in the US Dobermann population (q=0.53)(Chi-square=4.175, Probability=0.041 out of the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium for the population) – calculation based in the statistics on 76,267 Dobermanns of VetGen, a diagnostic laboratory associated with the University of Michigan, give the phenotipic distribution: 60% carriers & 17% affected-, it’s that if we eliminate the carriers heterozygotes, we loose genetic diversity because we reduce to much the breeding population. Caution is necessary, as demonstrate Proschowsky et al. (2003), -Animal Genetics Volume 34, Issue 2, Pages 142-145- for the restrictive program of the Danish Bedlington Terrier after 2000th directive. The elimination for the breeding of the heterozygotes has produced the loss of 4 alleles in only 3 years.

Encouraging rules:
- Refinement of diagnostic tests and DNA markers for inherited disorders in Dobermanns. Cooperation with the research groups and universities interested. For instance there is a wonderful research group at the Utrecht University, directed by the Prof. Dr. Bernard A. van Oost, researching genetic diseases in Dobermanns, particularity Dilated Cardiomyopathy.
- Measurement of real genomic current homozygosis levels in Dobermann. The availability of the high density oligonucleotide array (Canine SNP chip) would allow a fuller understanding of the extent and distribution of homozygosis in real genomes.
- Promote campaigns to collect funds for these studies.
- Increase genetic diversity by encouraging the inter-continental matings.
- Educate breeders about the genetic problems associated with the breeding of the pure breed dogs.
- Educate potential owners about the likely problems for the breed to help them to make informed decisions.
- Promote the creation of a Dobermann breeders and owners group, free associated and regardless of the Dobermann clubs, in programs which accept a restrictive code of ethics about good genetics breeding practices, welfare warranties of its dogs and open acces of data, to boost these practices in the Dobermann community.

Do you animate?
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Unread postby jotunheim » Thu May 13, 2010 5:17 pm

Sonia ...

I do animate ... as we live in one of the Nordic countries, and some of the suggestions you have brought forward, are more or less already set in motion here - the problem, as I see it, that those that administrate these rules/suggestions, meight not have sufficient insight ...

example:

Person gets a dog, this dog is a very strong linebreeding - the dogs behind this dog meight not have the same name, but are bred back on the same lines and even dogs ... now, this dog gets of age, and used for the breed - the chosen partner is a dog with the exact same lineage, even might have higher linebreeding to the dogs already mentioned within the first mentioned dog ..
Offspring from such a combination, is being reg. without any comments, as the people in charge, just do not have the insight of the lines or enough knowledge to read the pedigrees

so the rules/suggestions doesn't help.
Also, one can not expect the people behind the reg. of offspring / dogs to consist of that knowledge about all and every breed, nor have the proper insight to the genetic laws ... so what could be a solution ...
To avoid the elimination of the genepole, the requirement could be, that one or more persons, and with sufficient knowledge to each breed concerned, are attached to these organisations, so that the idea behind the rules/suggestions can be uphold, and hopefully through that, decrese health problems and preserve the breed for the future.

Breeders and organisations, not to forget the owners of the dogs - working together and accross borders is a great idea - the sad thing is, this will be very difficult - why !!! I will not go into details, but I'm certain, that you know why ...

Yes, a lot of research is on going, and has been so for many years - sometimes it seems that even at this level, people do not wish to share information - working on the same project, the same ideas - by sharing information, this could go quicker, as they wouldn't have to start from scratch - jump the fence and co-operate would be much better for the breeds involved ... It also seems, that the research is more interested in finding medication and not the genetic problem - through the medication is where the money is to be found - sad but to me unfortunately the truth.
The first publication I read and in regard to DCM, was published in the DV Magazine in 1986 (still have that magazine) almost 25 years ago, and where are we today ?
Personally, I have gathered a lot of information over the many years, and will be happy to share those - I also have some ideas, but I honestly need help to get them set in motion ...
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Unread postby Weinberge » Thu May 13, 2010 7:51 pm

jotunheim wrote:
Person gets a dog, this dog is a very strong linebreeding - the dogs behind this dog meight not have the same name, but are bred back on the same lines ...

so the rules/suggestions doesn't help.


Regading "the dogs behind this dog meight not have the same name, but are bred back on the same lines "

WRONG !
Corect is : the dogs behind this dog meight not have the same name, but are bred back AGAIN and AGAIN on the same lines !
If this word 'Again ' happened on ill bloodline, then, is true,result a big problem for race.

Regarding :"so the rules/suggestions doesn't help"
In past, to protect variability, Romanian breeding rule said clear 'Incest was prohibited ! To make inbreeding must to have accept of local kennel Club and COR (Registry Book) acception.

Before 1990 , Romanian dobermanns lived till to 15 years longevity, even Romania was genetically closed because politically reasons , even Romanian dobermanns have same roots and big lineinbreeding coefficients but in HEALTLY dobermanns and having suficient variability.

Variability, alone, don't always work , inbreeding is not always a bad thing .
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The load of the old fashioned kitchen

Unread postby Sonia Dobe » Mon May 17, 2010 2:38 pm

Hello Jotunheim:
You are right in many of your comments but I want to do some considerations:
1.- Founder effect is a common problem in the formation of all dog breeds and we must live with it. A smaller number of males than females were involved in the formation of most breeds. Otherwise, in animal breeding, paternal lineages degrade more quickly than maternal lineages because males are heterozygote for the sexual chromosomes (XY) and the paternal X chromosome is loose in the conception of a male offspring. In a balanced breeding population between males and females this is not a problem, but it’s a problem in a biased population with predominance of the paternal bloodlines and popular sires. Popular sires are a major problem and some of these males may produce more than 100 litters in their lifetime! Consequence: the breed is almost completely dominated by the paternal bloodlines but low rates of males’ gene flow are observed. It’s a paradox. We select on males but we loose its heritage in most cases. Often we forget that genes are inherited but not the genotypes.
2.- Inbreeding or Linebreeding are the same practice except by the intensity. By this I mean that there isn’t a magic number or a red line that separates the unsafe practices. With the actual structure of the Dobermann’s pedigrees, all mattings, included theoretical outcrosses on a 4-5 pedigrees, are at least linebreedings in a 15 generations pedigree. Theoretical linebreedings in fact are inbreedings in most cases. For instance puppies with a Wright inbreeding coefficient F=6.25% in a 4 generations pedigree (consanguinity 3-2 on a very inbreed popular sire), can be F=16.76% and a kinship coefficient R=30.9% in a 15 generations pedigree!
3.- There is the conviction that inbreeding is the only way to success on shows or in reproduction. In an interesting work: “Inbreeding-Is it necessary?” (http://www.canine-genetics.com/Inbreeding2.pdf) on the Dalmatian breed in the US, Dr. James E. Seltzer shown statistically that inbreeding is not necessary for winning shows, or to be a good producer. In fact the big majority of the best dogs in all categories were the product of open crosses or with an inbreeding coefficient smaller than the average for the breed: 7.007%. How to overcome this addiction to the abuse of inbreeding if the successful old breeders have always given this recipe? How to break the power of seduction of a simple and succulent sauce? Break the eggs, add the oil slowly shaking and already has mayonnaise. Anyone can do.
4.- Show dogs move much money and many vanities. This is a very dangerous cocktail. Veterinarians aren’t strangers to this conflict of interests. Palliative expenses of a dog affected by a genetic disease can be very high. I don’t persuade that the Dobermann community wants big changes. As I once said me a Dobe breeder friend: “Accept that things are well, the Dobermann is a short-lived dog!” It’s another point of view….
If the clubs authorities aren’t consequents with their responsibilities, if the breeders continue to sell dogs of popular sires and dams bloodlines -included dogs of dangerous bloodlines but potential show winners -, if the buyers accept the rules of the game and demand dogs with many popular sires in the pedigree, and if the veterinarians continue to making money on the care of the sick dogs, where does the force for a change? Where is the problem if the roulette is turning? I don’t know many cases where the reason has triumphed over the interests. I suppose that eventually authorities of the clubs will have to change some things to keep that the things to stay as they are, as in the famous phrase of Lampedussa in The Leopard.
I hope I'm wrong!
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Re: The load of the old fashioned kitchen

Unread postby Weinberge » Mon May 17, 2010 3:08 pm

Hello ,
D'accord with few notices:

Sonia Dobe wrote:1. Otherwise, in animal breeding, paternal lineages degrade more quickly than maternal lineages because males are heterozygote for the sexual chromosomes (XY) and the paternal X chromosome is loose in the conception of a male offspring.


Do you considder characters of a starting line female are more stable than a male characters which have same prosition in pedigree columns ?

Sonia Dobe wrote:2.-all mattings, included theoretical outcrosses on a 4-5 pedigrees, are at least linebreedings in a 15 generations pedigree.


In my opinion today, back than 5 generations , you will find only the SAME names.

Sonia Dobe wrote:3.Theoretical linebreedings in fact are inbreedings in most cases. For instance puppies with a Wright inbreeding coefficient F=6.25% in a 4 generations pedigree (consanguinity 3-2 on a very inbreed popular sire), can be F=16.76% and a kinship coefficient R=30.9% in a 15 generations pedigree!


Then you understand the calculation of imense kinship coefficient of afar ancestors (beacuse their imense numbers repetitions).
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Unread postby Weinberge » Mon May 17, 2010 8:00 pm

I agreed about the second part of your words.
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Unread postby Sonia Dobe » Mon May 17, 2010 8:06 pm

Estimated Valencia:
The Y chromosome is considerably smaller than the X chromosome and has a much lower density of genes and a very little proportion of the Y chromosome recombines with the X.
Image
We can say that the Y is a chromosome without dancing partner in the recombination. Males and females are equivalents for autosomes but not for the sexual chromosomes. The male genetic quality is less and environmental factors affect him more than the female. Y chromosome is particularly exposed to high mutation rates due to the environment where it is housed. The Y chromosome is passed exclusively through sperm, which undergo multiple cell divisions during gametogenesis. Each cellular division provides further opportunity to accumulate mutations. Additionally, sperm are stored in the highly oxidative environment of the testis, which promotes further mutation. His main genetic function is to determine male sex. Surely, if I want to keep the maximum heritage (genes) of a male I would keep a female in the crossing.

A question: In your expert opinion, what is the minimum inbreeding coefficient F that you can obtain in the crossing of any two dogs of any show bloodlines in European Dobermanns? And including working bloodlines?
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Unread postby Weinberge » Mon May 17, 2010 9:04 pm

I am not a expert in genetic, but I try to understand and study dobermann grenetic structures.

In my opinion today is almost impossible to talk about outcross ,valable in show and in working lines, too.

For example , because Jotun is here, today I study genetic of ZAREK V. WARRINGHOF . The inbreeding coef is moderate - 16% , based principal on Bingo Elendonk and WEYERMUEHLE .

Jotun actual puppys have NO INBREEDING in 5 generations. That is verry good for refresh. But if you study more back you will find for example 18 Bingo Elendonk with total 10.74 inbreeding coef .
And Jotun line/litter is one of the best in heterozygocy, medium inbreeding, good longevity , witout losting vertebral column.

If you choice ANY actual dobermann, if you count all ancestors more than 5 generations ....even ancestors are affar and have personal low coeff (0.02) because they are numerouses will result high values.
Really I don't know to interpret this imense values cumulated in dobermann breed.

I know dogs from show lines which have over 40% in 5 generations. This is imense. They are genetically bombs.
Imaginate what mean to calculate more than 5 generations back for this dogs. Nobody can resist.

Simply MY personal opinion from all what I understand till today.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Mon May 17, 2010 9:12 pm

Can you response clear, the genetically influence of one female is more or equal with males , over generations ?
Can resist one female characters over few succesive generations ?
One female can pass her traits over few succesive generations or in every generation her influence is diluted at 1/2 ?
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Unread postby jotunheim » Mon May 17, 2010 10:29 pm

medium longevity ????

When average longlevity is 10+ - is that then "medium longlevity" - I have to disagree on that - sorry
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Unread postby Weinberge » Mon May 17, 2010 10:31 pm

jotunheim wrote:medium longevity ????

When average longlevity is 10+ - is that then "medium longlevity" - I have to disagree on that - sorry


Pardon. Medium inbreeding.
Yes you have +10. The rest are around 8. Others down to 6-7. You have one of the best.
I correct my error.

Sorry, without intention.

P.S. I hope you like calculations average age mode . The repartition key is not a simply average, is a algoritm calculated function by geneticall baggage. Unfortunately I don't have all years data. But I think results remaining relativelly the same, maybe little less.
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Reflections of Genetists about popular sires & Y chromos

Unread postby Sonia Dobe » Wed May 19, 2010 1:21 pm

“No human population has demonstrated a loss of Y chromosome diversity of the magnitude observed within purebred dogs. The high level of breed specificity of the Y chromosome haplotypes* of purebred dogs and the associated loss of diversity were anticipated, but not to this degree. Domestication and breed development involve inbreeding but the extreme to which males were overused in the creation of most modern dog breeds is striking”.
Danika L. Bannasch et al. (2005). Y chromosome haplotype analysis in purebred dogs. Mammalian Genome, Volume 16, p.277.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/qk172t5tg5w42436/fulltext.pdf

“Mammalian sex chromosomes are not homologous for the majority of their length and the pseudoautosomal region is the site of obligatory pairing and recombination between X and Y in male meiosis”.
Andrea C. Young et al (2008). Tackling the characterization of canine chromosomal breakpoints with an integrated in-situ/in-silico approach: The canine PAR and PAB. Chromosome Research 16: p. 1194.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/v245051816066246/fulltext.pdf

From parents of Dog Genome:
“Moreover, paternal lineages are more differentiated than their maternal counterparts suggesting low rates of male gene flow. These finding are consistent with the ’popular sire’ effect whereby a small subset of desirable males are favored for breeding and suggests that, in the evolution of most recent breeds, males have had a disproportionate effect on genetic diversity and evolution”.
Robert K. Wayne and Elaine A. Ostrander (2007). Lessons learned from the dog genome. Trends in Genetics, Vol.23 No.11, p.561
http://users.utu.fi/antvas/EvolAppl/2010/Wayne_2007_Trends-in-GeneticsDOGS.pdf

“Within breeds, fewer Y chromosome haplotypes than mtDNA haplotypes were found. This strongly indicates that a smaller number of males than females were involved in the formation of most breeds”.
“The narrow definition of dog breed standards in recent times and the increasing value of purebred dogs strictly fitting the definition have led to a strong selective pressure in dogs that promotes this sex bias”.
“Although the bias toward males in the origin of breeds may be common to all large domestic mammals, in the case of the dog it represents a more extreme deviation from the ancestral social behavior”.
“The comparison of groups of breeds following the classification of the FCI or of the groups derived from the Parker et al. (2004) study reveals that groups are more differentiated from each other for Y chromosome than for mtDNA haplotypes”.
“Selection was centered on males and a bias in the contribution of the sexes may have predominated at the origin of most modern dog breeds”.

A.-K. Sundqvist, et al. Unequal Contribution of Sexes in the Origin of Dog Breeds. Genetics, Vol. 172, p. 1126 & 1127.
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/rapidpdf/genetics.105.042358v1

* Haplotype is a combination of alleles at multiple loci that are transmitted together on the same chromosome. In a second meaning, haplotype is a set of Single-Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs) on a single chromatid that are statistically associated.
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Unread postby Weinberge » Wed May 19, 2010 5:37 pm

Sonia Dobe,

Because already 'Specialists' contest any ideea on their blogs/forums,/chatboards etc,

Because seem you have a verry good genetics knowledges , can you said us your opinion about low genetic variability, high inbreeding coeficients , and illness incidance on dobermann breed ?
What happened with imunitar sistem ?
What happened with 'quantitative traits' ?
What mean 'consanguinity depresion'?
What happened if inbreed on ill bloodlines ?

Any comments are welcomed.

P.S. For specialists:it is not necessary to be Doctor Docent Magna Cum Laudae in Genetic to understand few genetically laws and simply things. But for sure must to be IDIOT if contest everything without any argument .
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