Maxim is a big dog ok... but not more Ron,Jared,Grant,Baron Nike, Fhiram,Gamon... and other champions important or not.


yew nike and gammon where bigger and taller but please do not compare Maxim with Ron or Hiram its rather unfair Ron and Hiram are real Dobs with not even one molossoid trait.

The real problem is not this. Is very difficult to understand this???

Yes you are right the problem is that our "eyes" are getting used to see "maxims" and we tend to forget the real Dobermanns volume, height, and last but not least CHARACTER

Agree...

Maxim is a big dog ok... but not more Ron,Jared,Grant,Baron Nike, Fhiram,Gamon... and other champions important or not.
The real problem is not this. Is very difficult to understand this???

hi IP:98.212.157.183, from: United States

exactly how i see it ..my present male is 71cm ...but i have seen males quite comfortable at 74cm 75cm ...many litters produce dogs this size its not something abnormal within the breed ...my point was aslong as the dog body is in harmony ..all correct ..movement etc then there is no real problem...excess weight obviously is not good ...but imo some working dogs are looking like they are anorexic. ...all in the name of points to get around the field quicker ...then as soon as a dog like maxim comes along there is a mass type of hysteria about mollosid build ...these smaller dogs maybe ok in real life protection against somebody who fears dogs ...but a person who doesnt will just throw it away like a rag doll ...all the best protection dogs have power and size behind them...that is a fact...but as said its all about sports now and points...the day of working types with conformation dogs like jago v beelen ..bronco v zenn are long gone ..the build of working dogs now is more like a small terrier .
cheers
camelot

I am not attacking Maxim either but still the dog is young, he failed ZTP and everybody run to mate him. Why? Let him pass ZTP -if he can-let him do some health tests and then run to him.Isnt that crazy? Everybody talks about the small gene pool and everybody do the same mistake as they did with Fedor. And keep walking zedor is coming as well lol.
I have also heard an other interesting opinion, hence some sirs give extra large offspring change the standard so we can have dobs of 75-76 even 78 cm lol
The time that Baron Nike (76) was"covering" every female in Europe has passed, then he was the only one with such advantages. Now we have much more many dogs with proven quality. Do not "stick" to the same sirs for Gods shake, you will further destroy the breed.

2010-02-04 21:45:28, IP:93.103.192.138, from: Slovenia
I dont want to know how Maxim failed and I really dont care. Im not attacking maxim. But he did fail first time. I only write since camelot wrote that the standard is old and that heigth should be changed. Wrong, very wrong. It would be a big mistake.


For what reasons to change the dobermann standard ?
Because exist breeders which like to breed over standard ?
That is the mostly dangerouse ideea which I heard in last years !

2010-02-04 21:07:56, IP:80.235.27.122, from: Estonia
There isnt big difference in normal character showline dobermann and a working line dobermann. By normal I dont mean weak nerved dobe. BUT go and see FCI WM and IDC WM and then you can see a real difference. You cannot compare modern workingline dobermann to a workingline malinois or GSD. I have seen working line dobes.

I wouldnt say that all modern dobermanns are slow and clumsy. Yes a 55 kg dog cant be very fast. An over fat dog cannot be fast.
The real problem isnt the weight but the strenght of nervs. But how you can repair it when breeders use a dobermann 100 times who hasnt got a charcater of a dobermann?


Interesant opinion.

2010-02-04 21:07:56, IP:80.235.27.122, from: Estonia
Nobody works trial with dobermanns anymore here. They are slow and clumsy. All switched to GSD or belgian sheperds. Even rottweilers are better. They are smaller and more compact than dobermanns (once it was the opposite). Stop blinding yourself that modern dobermann is good for work. Go to IDC championship and compare those dobermanns to the ones that win at IDC show. Its like day and night. Today competitors want fast dogs at trials not 55 kg dobermann moving like a great dane.



Verry interesant opinion !
In reality race need only few low/bad working character generations to change their character genetically formula and bye bye true dobermann.
Take care what you promovate here ! Already happened few generations.
That is only a fundamental opinion.

Darn Camelot beat me to it!! Figures the only other country to holds out with this messed up standard system.... :)

I agree about the size discussion in trial. Speed and stamina are important. In non trial work strength, bite power and targeting, and weight are better to have. The "event" does not last very long. Training does. But witness a conflict between a heavy weight and light weight of equivalent skill. The little guy almost never wins. And it usually doesn't last long. So what is the real use of this dog? Sport or Life? The thing is most show dogs are for neither...so why would bumping the standard for height( for them mostly ) make sense? Because some breeders can't figure out how to make combinations giving their "look" within the forgiveness of the standard? Why not?

Personally I prefer males at standard height but females alittle taller than FCI standard and slightly masculine muscularly. Both at the top weight or 2kg plus. But still within allowance.

conversion 1 cm = .3937in therefore 75cm = 29.528in. Gotcha Bitten! :p




man, I sure don't get to do that very often.....

OOOppsss! He was Deutscher Vize-Meister beim DHV 2006 - same points with the first.

No, the big difference is that they are smaller.
Dobs in working contition must be very much lighter than usual show dobs - for example see Lenox - this dob was practically 1st in FCI WM (2nd with the same points with the 1st). He is tall but thin without much flesh on him - if he was heavier he would be slow.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8WM5ji_RVg

Blacky stop repeating ur self.


Guys u think Mails and GSD are not faster because they are longer? They are bred to be longer while dobermanns are bred to be square. So please tell me if this has anything to do with it

Constantine

Not saying that standard should be changed. It would be wrong. I have all my dogs in limits and also most of the progeny.
Yes the details do count. And Malis are already quicker because they are MUCH lighter. And dobermann cant be that light. It would not be okay considering the standard. My own male can be easily compared to any GSD in here as he has got strong nerves, ofcourse there are quicker dogs. But as I have heard and also seen then most of Europe breeds some males who have unstable charcaters. That is a big mistake. And teh breeders know very well of those problems.
I wouldnt say that I see more overheight dogs every year. There are always some overheight dogs. But most of the dogs are still in limits, so I see no problem.

2010-02-04 21:45:28, IP:93.103.192.138, from: Slovenia
I only write since camelot wrote that the standard is old and that heigth should be changed. Wrong, very wrong. It would be a big mistake.

--

I totally AGREE :)

Bitten

And for those that think that ZTP in not the test of working abilities, read the following link very carefully as the father of ZTP writes why ZTP was created. I think many of you red this already.

www.ascomannis.com/articles/lisa/ztp/

Estonia, I dont consider myself stupid. I havent talked about character at all. Not only I was at FCI WM, I had a chance to be in organizing comitee of FMBB WM and FCI WM. Malinois is similar dog in character as dobermann (ok, little bit more temperament but can be very fragile just like dobermanns) but lighter, more explosive. If you have been to any of these big competitions, you will know that details in quickness count (how quick did he retrieve, how fast on the attack,...) I think I wrote that dobermanns are really not the breed that IPO fans will choose to work with (ok, some do, but in the past there was more of them). And the bigger the dobermanns are getting, the less of working abilities they will have.

I dont want to know how Maxim failed and I really dont care. Im not attacking maxim. But he did fail first time. I only write since camelot wrote that the standard is old and that heigth should be changed. Wrong, very wrong. It would be a big mistake.

2010-02-04 19:04:23, IP:93.103.192.138, from: Slovenia
Nobody works trial with dobermanns anymore here. They are slow and clumsy. All switched to GSD or belgian sheperds. Even rottweilers are better. They are smaller and more compact than dobermanns (once it was the opposite). Stop blinding yourself that modern dobermann is good for work. Go to IDC championship and compare those dobermanns to the ones that win at IDC show. Its like day and night. Today competitors want fast dogs at trials not 55 kg dobermann moving like a great dane.

A dog with very good working abilities should pass ZTP with ease, dont you think.


The question was about you paticular or the situation nowadays in slovenia. BUT yes a normal dobe should pass ZTP with ease. But first you tell anything about a dog then ask the owner why the dog failed the ZTP.
A working line dobermann doesnt give the working abilities for granted. There isnt big difference in normal character showline dobermann and a working line dobermann. By normal I dont mean weak nerved dobe. BUT go and see FCI WM and IDC WM and then you can see a real difference. You cannot compare modern workingline dobermann to a workingline malinois or GSD. I have seen working line dobes.So there is no need to tell me that go and see IDC WM.

I wouldnt say that all modern dobermanns are slow and clumsy. Yes a 55 kg dog cant be very fast. An over fat dog cannot be fast.
The real problem isnt the weight but the strenght of nervs. But how you can repair it when breeders use a dobermann 100 times who hasnt got a charcater of a dobermann?
AND the most important problem is that most of the dobermann owners are not interested in IPO work.

To me Maxim is longer than height. He is tall and for sure not 72 but he is withing limits.

I hate it that people need to take sides. Why cant people be objective? u see supporters of one side or enemies of an other side.

I think most of the Maxim's decription is unfair to the dog BUT also i read some things that are not facts. I read for example the dog failed because it was young, or the owner did not have experience. Those are poor excuses. If you would say the dog had a bad day i can get it. Sometimes u take ur dog for training and he doesnt feel like doing a thing. This is normal. Anyways in my eyes because i saw the dog live he looked normal and very socialized. I didnt see him on the sleeve but with the requirments the ZTP has i cant see a reason that the dog wouldnt pass. So i would believe it was one bad day.

Constantine

Oh, yes. I'm sorry. You are from Britain. You are not FCI and dont need IPO1 to get any complete a show championship. Here all breeds that are classified as working dogs need them. So they are not only to protect their masters.