Bitten

My apologies, yes it was Ulla but Ulina was the pick of the litter. Absolutely top class bitch

Geoff

Geoff

you wrote:

His sister Ulina produced Bitten's bitch Cila

this is not correct - Cila's Dam was:

Ulla

just making sure noting is misunderstood here.

Bitten

Mark at Camelot

Yes, let's dispense with the past and leave it were it belongs. In the past.
Your male from Dano was excellent, far better than Dano in fact but whether he had Dano's re-productive powers remains to be seen. What we are really talking about here is taking bits of Furstenfeld and using it with other bloodlines to bring the dogs up to-date yet keeping the best bits of Furstenfeld.

To truly believe the Furstenfeld dogs had no equal, as some people do, is a myth.Like all breeders Palmer had good and not so good litters. Some puppies I saw had incorrect headlines, some had stilted movement yet others had kept all the glory of the kennel. These things happen to every breeder.

Ulino and Ulini were the same dog. He was eventually euthanised through excessive aggression problems. His sister Ulina produced Bitten's bitch Cila.
A brother of these went to Russia never to heard of again, another to France and so on. Nelli v Weisen Haus the dam of the puppies was pet quality yet when put to Zento (the brother of Zando and a better dog than Zando) produced what we all know and recognise as Furstenfeld. As I said a little bit goes a long, long way.

Palmer told me he would never sell a dog again to Margaret Bastable because of the incident with Citto and as the world knows German breeders could not buy or use his dogs. He suffered excessive criticism from the German breeders. They accused him of using Greyhounds in his breeding progranmme and also criticised him because he would not work the dogs.

The really interesting factor is, if he did use the Greyhounds it might explain why his dogs were so healthy because Greyhounds do not contract DCM and are long lived and I would have a a kennel of Dobermann/Greyhound crossbreeds like our friend in Romania and many, many more people too.

But did he ? It's another question to leave were it belongs, in the past !!

Geoff Caunt

Hi Geoff

All I know is that I let you, and Jerry use Dano ,,I wont go into to much about the past details.
Asfar . as your comments on the dogs you have made some valid points, asfar as Dano yes he was not heavily built but which furstenfeld dogs were..but his bone was good ,which is the important factor if using the more refined dogs ..... and I agree with what you say that Hans Zwan failed to mention , but maybe he was talking from a show point of view.
Zando blood was intense enough to still give the important signature of furstenfeld ,,intensely dark eyes, and nice rich maghoney tan , and parallel heads. As you may remember I had a very nice male puppy from Dano ,,who turned out to be excellent in character, and looks..when i put him with an female from Mrs Bastables old lines , who was more based on wilm ..which seemed to produce some furstenfeld traits such as the intense dark eyes ..but as we know her dogs were generally on the heavy substance side than the more refined furstenfeld .... .even though i know she knew the importance of furstenfeld

.the later dogs from Herr Palmer were very much like your Ulino ..what happened to him? was he litter brother to Shawns Ulini?
It is a pity that much of Herr Palmers later matings were not able to be benefit, and used by the more important bigger breeders who could have put the dogs into the frame..because even if old fashioned in type ..the breeding points of good type were there .. ...but as Hans Zwan wrote Herr Palmer did not want any of his dogs to be used with germany .
cheers

Hi Valencia
I agree with you asfar as Dano's pedigree it was first class asfar as blood ...I think the problem with some breeders is that they tend to use the first class show dogs which tend not to click with the bitch they are using ,,,and rarely after hundreds of matings produce the real same quality ..this seems to be the easier option thats why.
Much better even to use an unknown dog that has the blood, and can give what your bitch needs, but it is normally the familar face at the shows that people tend to use ...even if the dog looks not so good.
I learnt about furstenfeld from my old friend the late Madame Larzillere ..who was head of the dobermann club in the south of france ,,,i often visted her to talk about the dogs ,,,and fell in love with a bitch she had owned from plana v furstenfeld who was very beautiful...i visited with her Madame Manuel from the famous french kennel ..but who based her dogs on more with cindy v forrell..i know she also worked with de stefusto of Rossi in italy ,,,and saw a beautiful young female she had from his, and her lines.
i think your on the right path with dn ,,,as his blood clicks with furstenfeld as the background of the pedigree is very much furstenfeld ..the intense use of the importants of pure furstenfeld to italy were important such as
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=45013&abo
and obviously through the more upto date use of verena ...good luck with what you are trying to do ,,obviously going to take time and maybe lots of failures not easy to re-produce pure furstenfeld again .
cheers
mark
camelot

Valencia,
I do not have your program anymore and have requested you resend it. It stop working after I did update. I say this because kennel dei Nobli Nati seem to have some dogs who have Forell,Furstenfeld not far back in their pedigree. A couple seem to have as much as Urbano, but as I said I do not have your program for calculations.

Bryant a.k.a bmgillespie

Looking to your breeding and what you said , I have some doubt you are a great Furstenfeld admirer.
Sorry.

In my knowledges, really other bloodlines brinh wrong HD in dobermann genepol.
You can said what story you like, the actual RADIOGRAFYS said and will said the truth.

It is true, I observe , not all Furstenfeld litters have Furstenfeld purity

Romania
The purity was the downfall I'm afraid. No breeder can constantly inbreed with the same dogs and achieve excellence. The litters without the absolute purity were perhaps the best litters to breed from

Like many I am a great admirer of Palmer and his dogs. He was a clever, clever man but I noticed that some dogs in his kennels were starting to show movement problems. One back leg would throw outwards instead of backwards for instance and this fault had transmitted to puppies from those dogs. I asked Palmer about this and he told me the dogs had no exercise when in fact it was because the dogs were so inbred.

I quote again Mr v d Zwann "The kennel Furstenfeld had come full circle"

Like a observation. By few years NOBODY talk about Forell breeding even he was the president and dominant bloodline.
Why not ? What missing to them ?

LOL

Personal except DIAMANTE DOBERMANNS I don't know any bloodline which conserve and protect Furstenfeld genes so well like Diamante do.

For me , when somabody (can be an Italian prince) said Diamante is a Forell one , is a joke .

* was left alone

It is true, I observe , not all Furstenfeld litters have Furstenfeld purity.
I don't know what happened , but in his last litters exist foreign genetical insertions and he breed on foreign countrys. Maybe that was the change .

I remaining to my humble opinion, Furstenfeld was ALONE.

That Is false. Maternal the bloodline of DANO WAS FIRST CLASS FEMALE , a FURSTENFELD PURE one because Weinberge bassically starting from same Furstenfeld root and it is not first time when Mr.Palmer use or recomand a Weinberge female.

Before to talk about Furstenfeld purity , why you don't analyse DANO father, ALADIN V. THANNHOF genetic based 3 time on JAGO V. BEELEN , a CHICO V. FORELL son ?
______________________
2010-06-09 19:31:28 ::: IP:86.23.126.70 (hide posts from this IP) ::: from Great Britain (UK)

Mr Van der Zwann explains quite correctly in his article in the Russian Dobermann Magazine the history of Furstenfeld. He also says that the last litters bred by Palmer were not from top quality bitches and perhaps he is right in that observation. What he doesn't say is " a little bit of Furstenfeld can go a long, long way" which is why Zando could produce dogs like Dano.

Camelot

Slight correction to your post if I may
I didn't use your dog Dano at stud, he was used on one of my bitches by a person who co-owned the bitch on breeding terms with me and who accomodated Dano for you over quite a long period of time. He was, a you say a standard sized male, nice head, good colour but a finely built male and that may be explained that although he carried Furstenfeld from his father Zando he also carried other bloodlines from his mother. Some of these bloodlines had links to Furstenfeld, but were not intensive direct blood.

The best males to arrive from Furstenfeld and carrying the bloodline to the UK where, in my opinon, owned by Margaret Bastable. Citto, and although bred outside of the Furstenfeld kennel, Baron v Bavaria. Margaret sold Citto and Baron was barely used because at that time American dogs held sway.

Mr Van der Zwann explains quite correctly in his article in the Russian Dobermann Magazine the history of Furstenfeld. He also says that the last litters bred by Palmer were not from top quality bitches and perhaps he is right in that observation. What he doesn't say is " a little bit of Furstenfeld can go a long, long way" which is why Zando could produce dogs like Dano.

I also imported a number of dogs from Palmer. One bitch in whelp to her own father who gave me Axton Ulla and Axton Udin. These dogs were no show winners and Palmer explained that would be the case before we did the mating. It did however give me a bloodline to develop and carry forward. Unfortunately it is very very difficult to carry a bloodline forward,retain the looks and health apsects but create a more modern dog at the same time.

Cila v Furstenfeld, owned originally by Michael Olesen who put a Sch H1 title on her and lately by Bitten was a female I chose on Michael's behalf. I exhibited her at a Bundesieger show in the youth class. Mr v d Zwann was judging and he said "a little old fashioned, but very nice" She made the last four in the class and went on to live to old age and produce many good dogs for Bitten.

hi valencia
I brought Dano v furstenfeld from Herr Palmer ..it was his last litter ,,I let Geoff use him ,,he was also used by a friend Marcell ..who works in security,,
Dano had the typical extreme dark eyes, and maghoney tan,
he had some forechest....the width is not great on a typical furtenfeld dog ,,,,they are very different from forrell..there abit greyhound in style ,,,,,, .......but he had good depth of chest,,,he was typical lump type in topline with a slightly long loin ,,,his head was very nice at about 5 yrs beautiful correct shape,,he had as i mentioned before slightly round eyes.
I had a very beautiful male from Dano with my bitch at the time ..Hans Zwan told me he was pick of the litter at 9 weeks , when he came to visit me ,,, and he was quite correct ,,,he was very beautiful .. he was doing ipo at a very young age in spain with the head of the dobermann club in spain there Jose ,
I had many people each day at least 30 people a day would stop to admire him when i took him for walks ,,,,
I was seriously at the time thinking of getting sperm from Dano to keep ,,,i made several enquirers about it , but never done it ,,,,i hope that clears some things up
At about 8 years he got wobblers ,.,at 10 he was put to sleep due to it.

thxs
cAmelot

is possible to see any offsping out of Hainide Rolls-Royce?
there is a site?

Imitz Tango is one - http://www.elgreconero.com/EL%20GRECO%20NEW/TANGO%20ENG.htm

hej

is possible to see any offsping out of Hainide Rolls-Royce?
there is a site?

Photos ...

IDC 2010
http://picasaweb.google.sk/slovakia.doberman.sk/20100606IDCWM2010#


http://doberman.rajce.idnes.cz/IDC_2010_WM_Vrbove/

hope you will responde that because this is important and can prove some things

try writing to me first at :
enquiries@axtondobermanns.com

My english is bad. What you said ?

"... like Palmer I am very choosy where the blood goes "
Geoff Caunt


Palmer was worried about how blood goes ?
That you said ?
I hope you will responde that because this is important and can prove some things.