Traditional Breeders and old information ?

[Weinberge]

I already say in other topic my opinion about necesity TO PROTECT ALL DOBERMANN BREED GENETICAL BAGGAGE. I talk about old kennel who lost their lines or their dogs many dissapear. Many lines maybe is not deseapear ! I talk about necesity of information, help between breeders and work together to conserve and develop this rare lines, characters and genes.

I talk about lines like DOBERHILL , GUNTHERSFORST (TOSKA), NAPLEMENTE, URGEHATI( ARLET DI TORRET MOZZA brother brench ), ARANY SARCANY, some WEINBERGE brench, VESTE OTSZBERG, ARIEL V. DONAUTAL (mother ANNABELLA V. KLIPPENECK- BOSCO DI GIANO brench),HONOR GUARD'S lines, or others FURSTENFELD and FORELL unused brench, and may many others.

Diversity represent in my opinion resistence of dobermann breed and i think and sense they exists but need to organize and make one club who respect IDC rules and protect her rights and dobermann breed alternatives. I think dobermann breed need to CONSERVE alternatives and DIVERSITY of GENES and help to not lost or diminuate DOBERMANN BREED GENETICAL BAGGAGE .

If you have old or new lines, if you have show or working lines and need help or information or you can offer help or information and consider this one good thing please write in this topic yours opinion or contact me in mail alinsaga68@yahoo.com and let try together.

And thinking good ! Maybe now you are the best, maybe is hundred of yours line dogs all around you , but in one day yours line can be lost forever and you can only remember ! Now you can help.

Or maybe you have only one corect dobermann from one not very well know lines but you can try.Is not imposible nothing !

[Weinberge]

I already found one old information about Ch Poland Brando Dob Bet.
I search this info by long time.
http://www.akagera.pl/brando.htm

VENTO FURSTENFELD lines. Other lost lines who have descendents in ARANY SARCANY COLIN and...finish

Maybe somebody know and the rest of pedigree.
Thanks.

Edit : Is not finish. I fond VENTO lines and in Mooreiche lines ( Cox v.d. Mooreiche). Working qualities

And Bibeur du Clos des Grognards (born 2003) have Vento Furstenfeld lines. France?

[akagera]

Hi valencia I am not the owner of Brando. I have been looking for his pedigree together with the international jugde J. Jabłonska. Tomorrow I am going to phone Brando's breeder and get its pedigree form him so that I can put it on this web site.

[Weinberge]

Teo , Carlos, and others my friends, i ask you something.

Because i like yours thinking about dobermann breed, i think is more good to make one Traditional Club. Already exists some mans who like ideea.
No need one big Club, only with Sieger Dobermanns(is ok and mans who only love this breed) , no need big members taxes.
We need only to make this club, need frendship , good knowledge , database , ideeas, to help with advice members and dobermann lovers and protect and help all dobermann blood lines.

Dobermann Review maked much for dobermann breed. Already help. All talk about health problem (and broken silence) , about one new dobermann, about character , about working and show lines, about ancestors. I consider Dobermann Review one international place where all is free to talk about dobermann.

Maybe Dobermann Review will be help this ideea and make one special topic and for members for have one international place for discussion.
I am sure this discussion means very much for beginer breeders and for dobermann breed. This means very much in my pinion and need to be continuated .

I give one example about me. I learn very much only in few months about dobermann in all discussion. I know opinion, informations about lines and trends, about health, ancestors, etc. But i think need more work and need one organizated structure -with one sample structure based by rotation presidency- for secure continuity in future and open new way.

What say about this?

[Weinberge]

Already i am contacted by kennels from France and Poland. In Romania i think i will found some members. I think in this country exists many old lines because breeders know Tradition.
In Poland, Padoku kennel have one tradition by 30 years and already write me.

If you have ideeas about Traditional Club future activity, please write.

[Carlos2006]

I think, before speaking about a true evolution of the Dobermann race, is important to establish the rules and the Dobermann Verein has applied to these rules many years ago, that is to select the Dobermann with the ZTP.

The first country that has applied these rules has been Italy and all the world can see the results of this country.

Now is important that the other countries they follow these rules.

This is the more important message that we must diffuse, dear Valencia

[Weinberge]

Carlos ,
for what you say first DV need to recognise oficial HD exam in all country and need more ZTP judges not only German. Many countrys have one national ZTP.
This can be our message but is not our activity. This is activity of DV and IDC.

About ideea of one Traditional club what you say ?

[Carlos2006]

[Weinberge]

This is one extras :

ZTP (Zuchttauglichkeitsprufung) rules
[Zucht = breeding, Tauglichkeits = fitness, Prufung = Trial]

THINGS YOU NEED FOR STARTER ZTP:
copy of the pedigree
letter sent to the DV that you want to participate at the ZTP
HD-result from Germany or from DV recognized country. if you dont have a HD-result at the time when the ZTP takes place then you can parttake, but the ZTP will be taken away from you if your dog doesnt get at least HD-2 dog needs to have at least BH the parents need to have a HD-result, no matter if German or not, copies of the results have to be sent to the DV. At a STARTER ZTP Dog owners from any country except Germanyare allowed to take part. German owner is not allowed to take part at the Starter ZTP, because dogs with Starter ZTP are not allowed to be used in Germany for breeding, just their children.

THINGS YOU NEED FOR NORMAL ZTP:

Copy of the pedigree
letter to the DV asking for participation at the ZTP
HD-result from Germany or a from DV recognized country, if you dont have a HD-result at the time when the ZTP takes place then you can parttake, but the ZTP will be taken away from you if your dog doesnt get at least HD-2 dog needs to have at least BH both parents need to have a German HD result or a result from a country recognized by the DV.
one parent needs to have a NORMAL ZTP to be allowed to take part and both need to have a german HD result or a HD result done in a country recognized by Germany.

Everyone who has a dog that fullfils the requirements is allowed to take part in NORMAL ZTP. People outside Germany are allowed to take part at a ZTP in Germany, but Germans are NOT allowed to take part at a German ZTP abroad.


1."dogs with Starter ZTP are not allowed to be used in Germany for breeding, just their children. "
I ask in this cas how is possible if not have reproductive right to have puppy "just their children "

2. In Germany need BH, In Italy No need BH and is free to participate at ZTP. BH in my opinion not have reproductive value. Or if not have BH mean not can participate at ZTP and mean not can have pedigree.This mean BH select dobermann breed.

3.In Italy is good to have ZTP but have reproductive right and without BH and without ZTP. In Germany and other countryes no.

4.I see some nenatural situation in ZTP. First i see 7 mans up all on the dogs in one non-natural mode. I reffer at socialissation test. I think is more good to have pussikat without guard instincts. One dog without guard instincts, good socialized pass this test without problems what time bite one cloth. Second, at fix point, judge not respect secure distance of dogs and some time touch the dog. In other discussion i hear is not accepted if dog enter in guard mode at fix point but is very well accepted if judge touch dog and dog smile at judge.

CORECT JUDGEMENT maked by German Judges Norbert Daube, DV-Germany and Judge: Dr. Gerhard Schuler, DV-Germany





And INCORECT judgement maked by other Judge when 9 mans go with decisive intention for up at the dog with umbrella in hand .


About this next pictures no comment: -Go with dog at home !


I sugest only to respect diversity instincts and reaction of dobermanns.

5.I see very good trained dog who not see nothing allround him during the test. I think this dogs is preffered in one non-natural mode of test.

6.This not mean i sugest agressivity but i talk about one dog with guard instincts. I suppose ZTP need to be one natural test who evaluate natural qualities of dobermanns.

7.Is abnormal in my opinion when many country NOT have right to make official HD exam because this mean health of dobermann breed .

8.Before teste one old Romanian breeders say : "i do not know if my dog will not reactionated "negative" at this teste, i expected to reactionated". Fortunately not reactionated. Is this teste one fortunetely or not fortunately teste for very good dogs , when we talk about reproductive right ?

I accept dobermann breed need ZTP but in my opinion some things need to be more clear and need to be acceptated diversity. I do not think need to accept only one tipe of dobermann like one mental of phisical xerox because this destroy diversity or many time equilibrium is re-born between two diferent types.

[Carlos2006]

I answer to you with this name http://www.americandobermann.com/
in three years it is a CLUB already aligned to the rules of Doberman Verein, why?

[Weinberge]

Because have other mentality, accept new and asimilate new things and new points of view very easy.
I make one supposition because i do not know about this.

Edit: Up, I put some pictures to be more clear.

[BasKal]

Carlos, this is not a club, this is practically only one Kennel.It was too easy this way.Look more closely at them.But in the future they will grow.It will be good.

[Weinberge]

I hear in SUA exists two clubs. One of them not accept many things, work with American lines, blue and brown light color, etc.
The second begin to work much more with European lines and accept the new.
Because I do not know exactly situation is more good to not talk about this American Clubs.

[Carlos2006]

I think only, that Club ADA must essre an example for the many other countries

[Carlos2006]

I think only, that CLUB ADA it must be an example for the many other countries