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Rosamburg
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 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| gribbon wrote: | Hello Valencia!What do you think about opening the CIRCLE?I speak about a totaly different opening by using American blood as alternative.I post again the article i wrote about American lines ,in order everyone to understand this idea of opening the circle and why the crossings of American x European blood are important:
"Influential Dobermanns in the USA
It would be interesting to mention some great and also very influential dobermanns in the USA, beginning from the decades of 20’s and 30’s with the influence of German (Sigalsburg) and Dutch (Koningstad) bloodlines.
Great specimens like the German bred male Muck v.Brunia (Lux v.Roedeltal-Hella v.Winterburg, whelped in 1929)who was grandson of Alto v.Sigalsburg and top producer in Germany and USA too. Illisa of Westphalia (Claus v.d.Spree-Prinses Illisa v.d.Koningstad, whelped 1926) the brown female who was the only American bred dog who became German siegerin.
Another dog, very influential in US, was Jessy v.d.Sonnenhoehe (Charloc v.Rauhfelsen-Alice v.d.Sonnenhoehe, wh. 1934), a German bred female who is one of the most important females in history, having a large number of great descendants in Europe and US. Especially in the US she produced 13 champions from only 2 litters.About 45 of her grand children became champions in America.
During the 40’s US saw one of the best males ever in this country - the great sire (52 of his descendants became champions), Dictator v.Glenhugel (15 BOB-5 BIS)(Blank v.d.Domstadt-Ossi v.Stahlhelm, wh. 1941). His German bred mother was daughter of the very important German producer Troll v.Engelsburg and grand daughter of Muck v.Brunia, while his, also German bred, father was son of Muck v.Brunia and produced 15 champions, being one of the most influential American sires.
Another important dog was Rancho’s Dobe Storm(Rancho’s Dobe Primo-Maedel v.Randahof, 1949). Even in Germany at this time there was no dog to defeat him, according to specialists. He was shown 25 times and always was the best of breed, 22 times best of working group, 17 times best in show and 2 times best in show at Westminster. He sired 20 champions. It is very interested to note another impressive show dog and great producer too, Borong the Warlock (Astor v.Grenzweg-Florowil Allure, 1955). His mother was granddaughter of Dictator v.Glenhugel. Borong was 234 times BOB, 3 times winner of the National specialty and reserve Bundessieger. He produced 39 champions.
The decade of 70’s gave to the breed the amazing Marienburg’s Sunhawk (Marienburg’s Sundancer-Marienburg’s Desert Flame, 1973) who was the sire of 86 champions.Sunhawk was top dobermann of the year 1976,DPCA National Specialty 1976 BOB,top 20 1975 winner,he won 139 BOB,5 BIS and he was BOB at the westminster show in 1976. His daughter Marienburg’s Mary Hartman has the incredible record of the 44 BIS awards!
One of the best stud dogs of the 80’s in the US was Elektra’s the Windwalker (Beaulane Windfall-Elektra’s Rally Round the Flag). Between his descendants we admire one of the top show dogs in the US dob’s history, the brown female Royal Tudors Wild as the Wing and also his grandson, the superb Brunswig’s Cryptonite.Brunswig’s Cryptonite (Kafka) was bred by Robert and Phyllis Farrier and handled by George Murray and he is the top winning dobermann of all times in the US and one of all the time top winning dogs of any breed!He is the second top sire(114 champions!!) in the US dob’s history (the first is his grandson Cabria’s Cactus Cash!) Kafka was shown 428 times and won 392 times the BOB award,he had 350 group placements,258 group firsts and 124 BIS awards!!!
During the 80’s the combinations between USA and European bloodlines have been very famous and very successful, producing dogs like, for example, Cara’s I’m the Gabler (Elektra’s the Windwalker- Alida v.Flandrischen Loewen) and Marienburg’s Morocco, son of the very influential for the US stud Dexter v.Franckenhorst (imported by the Marienburg kennel), who was the sire of 30 champions. Alida’s 2 litters in the US (the first sired by Elektra’s the Windwalker and the second by Akela’s the Vindicator) produced 7 champions. Alida played a very important role for the international development of the breed. Her excellent phenotype and genotype and her amazing results in the litter box made her one of the most important females in the breed’s history. A very successful example of this type of combination in Europe is the mating between Tequila Mali del Citone and Holmrun Phabio of Marienburg. The result was the amazing Crystal Conny del Citone(Greek and international champion,idc 1997 champion class winner,vice aiad siegerin 1998).
Two other remarkable dogs that must be mentioned in this short report are: the top producing sire in the US breed’s history, the great Cambria’s Cactus Cash (sire of 145 champions as of November 2006!) and the unique Marienburg’s Repo Man, son of the famous Argentine producer Nello’s Lex Luthor. Repo Man has 55 BIS awards and he is the sire of 46 American champions.
Maybe also today we can find some very valuable dogs in America that could be used as a good alternative, in order to enlarge the genetic “pool” in Europe.(Dogs like for example Aeolus Arabian Knight, Dabney’s Phenomenon, Alex de Akido San, Marienburg’s Little Big Man, Charleston Louis Dobermann etc.) " |
My bitch is from Russian lines (S'lichobor), but there are several of the famous American lines in her pedigree including the sunhawk and one or two more. I don't have a problem with that as she has sg to v conformation and sch3, so her working temperament is good, medium hardness, etc. For me the real problem then comes in further breeding, because working ability is the top priority for me. My schutzhund club minimum breeding policy states that both bitch and dog must be sch titled.
This brings the breeding pool in the states down to probably 25-35 dogs total. If I weed out dogs with potential health problems it probably takes it down to 20 dogs. I love Del Citone dogs but am hesitant to line-breed on them due to cardio issues, so that further limits the dogs available. My bitch is low thyroid, so dog must be thyroid normal (which is often not tested btw with Euro dogs at least it appears.) that took another few dogs out of the pool. Now I am left with very few dogs. I either have to go with an outcross to dogs with not so good conformation or linebreed to dogs with mediocre working ability. One dog I am considering however also has some of those same american lines in the background (though is probably 7/8 euro). . He is ZTP V1A (Wibs) and sch3, IPO3. However the common american lines makes me want to avoid this breeding. Other comments appreciated.
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Weinberge
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Rosamburg wrote: |
My schutzhund club minimum breeding policy states that both bitch and dog must be sch titled.
This brings the breeding pool in the states down to probably 25-35 dogs total. If I weed out dogs with potential health problems it probably takes it down to 20 dogs
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Monopol politic in USA -country of freedom. 
Selection with trainer again 
Again few mans think they are Gods ?
And about the rest thousands dogs what hapened without pedigree and reproductive right ? Castrate and transform in common race ?
P.S. What hapened with one good dog without trainer? What hapened with one medium character dog with very good trainer ? I am couriouse. 
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Rosamburg
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: minimum breeding standard |
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Actually the club is in Canada and is a GSD club. To be a member of the club we don't make excuses for our "alternate breeds" and instead go head to head with the best working line GSD's that money can buy. I for one like this because I do not have rose-colored glasses about my dog's abilities like I might if I only saw Dobermann's working.
This policy accomplishes a few things) 1. it eliminates commercial breeders from being in the club 2)It eliminates those dogs which the breeders THINK has good character but cannot perform under pressure/stress, over time this improves the working character of dogs as it eliminates probably 20 % of dogs every generation 3)it causes members to get off their ass and train if they hope to breed
Maybe if more Dobermann owners followed this policy, got off their asses and
actually trained their dogs to the point of getting real titles on them then we would have a better breed today, in terms of working ability.
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Rosamburg
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: medium quality |
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Sure, medium quality in terms of working ability can get the title under good training. However the lowest quality dogs are not going to pass under a real judge and this I think is a good thing for the betterment of the breed. Too many dogs of low working ability are bred every year.
It should be no problem for people to train to a schutzhund title with medium to high quality dog. They just need to spend less time on the internet and more time with their dogs.
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Rosamburg
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Valencia wrote: | | Rosamburg wrote: |
My schutzhund club minimum breeding policy states that both bitch and dog must be sch titled.
This brings the breeding pool in the states down to probably 25-35 dogs total. If I weed out dogs with potential health problems it probably takes it down to 20 dogs
. |
Monopol politic in USA -country of freedom.
Selection with trainer again
Again few mans think they are Gods ?
And about the rest thousands dogs what hapened without pedigree and reproductive right ? Castrate and transform in common race ?
P.S. What hapened with one good dog without trainer? What hapened with one medium character dog with very good trainer ? I am couriouse. |
Actually in the USA there is complete freedom in terms of breeding. To breed and register with the AKC you need to do nothing except pay money. I have complete freedom to go to another club to train. I go to the one I go to because it is the best. To continue to train there I must follow their ethics. I am ok with this.
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Weinberge
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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In this case i not understand about what kind of club you reffer exactly in anterior post. Like performance one club can request and IPO 7 but only like performance.
If is freedom in AKC then is OK. 
Last edited by Weinberge on Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BasKal
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Ι think you must try to breed her with a european dog-cooled or frozen semen technology is not uknown in europe.
The way you write about dobermann working ability, is like writing about the achievements of a handicaped child.
This is because I fear that in your country an average - to good working dob struggles with the G.Shepherds. I dont think that this inferiority is true in real working dobs in europe (I refer to the genetic pool not only results). Numbers and quality of owners sent them appart here, but they are really good dogs mostly in Germany, Chechoslovakia and Skandinavia.
What is the pedigree of the female?
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Rosamburg
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| BasKal wrote: | Ι think you must try to breed her with a european dog-cooled or frozen semen technology is not uknown in europe.
The way you write about dobermann working ability, is like writing about the achievements of a handicaped child.
This is because I fear that in your country an average - to good working dob struggles with the G.Shepherds. I dont think that this inferiority is true in real working dobs in europe (I refer to the genetic pool not only results). Numbers and quality of owners sent them appart here, but they are really good dogs mostly in Germany, Chechoslovakia and Skandinavia.
What is the pedigree of the female? |
I agree, that it is almost like referring to handicapped child. That is not really my perspective but sort of what most Dobermann owners in the states who are doing schutzhund seem to expect their dogs to be treated. Many seem to tip-toe around trying to find easy judges to trial under. You are also right that there are very few REALLY good working dogs here though there are some. It does seem however that working line dogs that end up here seem to be the worst conformation dogs out of Europe. I know in Germany even most of the working line dogs are between an SG to V conformation wise. Here in the states I think when the DV judges hand out even an SG rating to some of these dogs they are being VERY generous.
My Training director has said he has seen very few good working Dobes outside of Germany. He goes to Europe at least once a year as well as judging and doing seminars in Germany and other parts of Europe. You then factor in the few that have experience working them and the gene pool is severely limited.
Her lines are primarily show as well. If you were to look at he litter-mate Germanika on the S'lichobor site you can see her pedigree. Mostly Italian, Dutch, Russian lines. S'lichobor Germanika has a litter on the ground right now so you could look at the litter on the right hand side of the Dobermann Review site or http://www.slichobor.ru/dob_page_34engl.htm
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Rosamburg
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: frozen semen |
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| From what I understand the cost of shipping semen from Europe is extremely high. IT looks as though it (at least from what I understand) it would be no more expensive than to just fly there. I am not in the best financial shape at the moment or I would breed her to a good dog IN Europe. I may have to skip the next heat cycle.
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BasKal
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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I think that it may prove worthy to skip this heat and try to breed her in europe. Semen is also expencive in america, I tried once and the cost was enormous, but the problem was most the mating fee which was about 3 times the fee of a world champion european dobe!
The pedigree is reasonable for comformation and maby the bitch can "take" a slightly "ugly" male and yet produce good pups. The bigest problem with working line dobs is substance-they tend to be light for the trend today, and some type problems like wide sculls and big masticators.
I would take the words of "experts" with a bit of salt. Clearly there are many talended dobs out of germany . The owners and the way of raising the pups are the big problems in dobs. I had seen many times dobermanns with superior abilities destroied by stupid owners and trainers that they dont like the breed. I suggest you to find a trainer who likes the breed. Many so called "experts" simply try to make a bad name to dobs.
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Weinberge
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry if I broken yours discussion , I like Kato di Altobello from first DR page:
BARON NIKE RENEWAL x GINO CITONE x RUI MANUEL RIO BIANCO.
Again this combination.
I like eye shapes and head expression.
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BasKal
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Valencia, forgive me, but his eyes are his worst point. Narrow like a chinese and light. Otherwises good dog.
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Weinberge
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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I know, i know, you like round eyes.
About color, i see light colors but this picture is one artistic picture.
About real eyes color we need to see the real dog or normal pictures.
And I not understand this problem again and again- light eye color.
For me pigmentation was all time the best easy possible problem.
Need only one good and strong pigmentation gene. Nothing else.
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BasKal
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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I dont like round eyes, but the correct almond shape.
The color of eyes is not a general pigmentation problem. There are many dogs with light eyes and dark pigment in mouth, also with a black mask.
Rui had beautiful dark eyes but produced many light in greece.
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Weinberge
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