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Niro
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 Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| Rosamburg wrote: | | Camelot1 wrote: | depends on what you want from the dog ..sch , or ipo is a sport ...doesnt mean that dog will naturally protect if its parents are ipo 1, or ipo3 or not ....everyday life should tell you more, and knowing the bloodline says more ..the isolation test on strange ground with an unknown person ..and esp if never trained before can tell you something about that dog .
The dogs in the past were close to the facilities .e.g in germany , and holland .....for korung etc ..and the dogs you mentioned such as gino ..gamon..jivago are in all show lines in europe ..and is natural for vello to have taken working tests so much ...he was owned by the main working man Herr Vogel ..I think this gap in show/work is abit of a myth ..asfar as dogs from show lines can't work ...as said all those studs you mentioned in the past are inbred on the present lines in the show ring ..there is no difference . I think the main problem is most properly the owners do not care much to do the working competitions ..with there dogs .
cheers |
Saying that everyday life will tell you everything is a crock. Absolute rubbish. Are you going to have someone without protection come in and whale on your dog? Are you going to have someone attack you and see if your dog bites them or runs away?
PROPER training in Schutzhund WILL tell you a hell of a lot about the dog. To quote Vogel, it takes a few years of training to understand the working ability of the dog. A REAL schutzhund trial SHOULD give us a glimpse of the dogs ability. However the way many people go about it, of course does not tell us much... This would include working the dog 100% in prey (play) drive. Cherry picking "working" trials by choosing EXTREMELY favorable conditions to trial in such as super easy/Santa Clause judges, helpers who apply absolutely no pressure and have no presence, who make prey movements when they are supposed to be testing defense drive and how the dog handles pressure, and on familiar club grounds does tell us nothing. Except perhaps that the owner (who often has just paid a professional) is probably good at marketing their dog. I will give you this, that kind of approach to Schutzhund in many situations does turn it into a farce.
I think that often these statements about schutzhund not meaning anything in terms of protection ability or somehow implying that it does not have value, has done much to undermine the ability of the dogs. I see it as usually a case of not wanting to get off your ass and make the commitment to train. If you don't have the resources near you then maybe you could make the effort to get it started yourself. This may mean traveling to seminars and learning, but every club and every region had to start somewhere. Established clubs did not drop out of the sky.
Just because the dog have the same dogs in the past pedigree it certainly does not mean they have the same working ability or drives. This would be like saying that a dog would be an IDC conformation champion just because the grandparent dogs in the pedigree are IDC champions.
Breeding dogs of proper working temperament (a dog that has a high level of prey drive, with a balance of defense drive and a nerve structure that can handle pressure) is no less an art than breeding conformation champions. You have to understand working drives of the individual dogs and be able to match them accordingly, while taking into consideration the lines they come from.
Congratulations Julia with your achievement with your dog. I have seen her litter mate work and she definitly has ability. The attitude of show line people in regards to working ability is one of the factors that has turned me off, and to turn away from show line dogs.
I also of course took into consideration that continuing to go in that direction has done nothing to make for a healthier dog. I am grateful that I made the decision to do an outcross breeding so now perhaps my dogs puppies have a chance. Because so many breeders continue to double and triple up on multiple dogs in the pedigree who died early of disease, many of our dogs are doomed from the start. Breeders who continue to cover up the death (or cause of death) of the dogs also are contributing to the demise of the Dobermann breed. At least if people who breed are not in the dark when matching pedigrees then maybe the dogs will have a chance. Unknowingly line-breeding on dogs who were diseased makes that a difficult road. |
I agree with y Rosamburg - IPO is a good thing to evaluate the character when the dog pass BECAuSE of its nuatural traits and insticnct and NOT because of its training which can mask flaws.. To many IPO11 and 111 dogs wont even bite the arm @ the Körung when submitted to some pressure..
I have been looking through many of the Körungs recent years and i am quite disappointed actually - to many miss the sleeve and dont have the courage and hardness to to bite and keep up the fight maybe after an unpleasant "slam" to the ground.. And we are talking about IPO111 dogs with 90-100 points in manwork  - it tells something is missing in relation to the "real" character a Dobe should have.. IPO is a dog sport - but like Camelot say it does not mean the dog also will defend y in a real life situation..it is unlogic when the dog even wont keep up the fight with an unpleasant "helper" who put pressure on the dog..(and the dog has years of training and high trial in IPO111) - in real life the dog prob would run away..
Because dogs completely without aggression and "sharpness" are todays ideal and also easier to sell and for the normal dog-owner to handle (+ pressure from goverments around the world that aggression in a dog are unwanted) - this is the breeders focus and goal - i dont say that this is wrong but i think it is important that some breeders still breed (with responsibillity and suited owners - which is not easy) dogs in the "sharper" end of the scale..so these traits not are lost forever in the Dobermann.. |
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Niro
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:41 am Post subject: |
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@Camelot - interesting story  - i have too owned a Dobe who proved he would protect in a real life situation - he was extremely dominant, hard , confident with quite alot of sharpness - he came from Machico Les Deux Peupliers and Arrow and Arrabella Harrosberg on his father side - dogs known for alot of aggression - his mother side was "old" Norwegian lin with alot of Bryan Forell and Vello F blood - BuT it is not easy to own such a dog and require alot of responsibillity - and since i dont need a personal protection dog i prefer the sport dog type.. 
But like i said imo it is important that there are still some breders who continue to breed such dogs..
My preference in relation to the topic - top show quality dogs with a real sport dog character i prefer the Jivago and Gino line - they both made very good Körungs themselves (especially Jivago) and they both have produced alot of dogs with the Körung (+numerous IPO titled off-spring) - also Nitro produce very good sport dogs but i think many lack "hardness" and the more "serious" character - they pass the IPO111 but not many Körungs..
If one lower the requirement to the "look" i very much like Les Deux Peupliers - Zamu is a dog i hope more people will use in the future - he did a good Körung and have a important father line to preserve so it is not lost < Jano V Bayern 
I think also Boss Burghof is very interesting - he seems to have a "serious" character with alot of "fight drive" with dominance and alot of hardness - Take a look @ V Klosterkamp who now have mating with Boss - THIS IS work pedigree - of serious caliber and Kör -dogs
Ciao!
Merry Christmas all
Last edited by Niro on Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CharlieChuck
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:44 am Post subject: |
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I also feel we are losing dogs at the sharper end of the scale.
I would say these kind of dogs are not for everybody at times can be impossible to handle.
Does anybody here know of any particular dogs or kennels who have or still breed dogs with this 'old type' character? |
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Niro
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:12 am Post subject: |
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I did not see your post Charlie (i was aditing my other post above) - like i sayd there - take a look @ the new litter/mating from V Klosterkamp - this is a combination of SERIOus dogs - Boss Burghof, Ningicosan Weyermuhle, Baddhita D Champion,Brista Doberwache, Gero Moor, Question, Emir and Zorba Les Deux Peupliers, Alfred urftquelle = dogs in the division of hard, dominant dogs with some "sharpness (and aggression)
I forgot to mention Tairo Thor Divina Celeste - a successfull combi out of the old work lines from Germany in the mother side and Gino Gomez Citone - I dont think they lost much in the character from the mother side but improved the look - i wish more breeders could think like that - both the ones who to strongly inbreed on Weyermuhle, Mooreiche, Ellendonk and so on and the show breeders who is afraid of this old German lines cause they are not easy dogs.. I am happy to see that Nobili Nati in Italy have used Tairo Thor and also Quint Edertal.. keep up this work.. |
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Rosamburg
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Niro wrote: | I did not see your post Charlie (i was aditing my other post above) - like i sayd there - take a look @ the new litter/mating from V Klosterkamp - this is a combination of SERIOus dogs - Boss Burghof, Ningicosan Weyermuhle, Baddhita D Champion,Brista Doberwache, Gero Moor, Question, Emir and Zorba Les Deux Peupliers, Alfred urftquelle = dogs in the division of hard, dominant dogs with some "sharpness (and aggression)
I forgot to mention Tairo Thor Divina Celeste - a successfull combi out of the old work lines from Germany in the mother side and Gino Gomez Citone - I dont think they lost much in the character from the mother side but improved the look - i wish more breeders could think like that - both the ones who to strongly inbreed on Weyermuhle, Mooreiche, Ellendonk and so on and the show breeders who is afraid of this old German lines cause they are not easy dogs.. I am happy to see that Nobili Nati in Italy have used Tairo Thor and also Quint Edertal.. keep up this work.. |
Good post. I agree, though sometimes terms can be a little differently perceived, especially hardness vs sharpness.
If you read back on hx of what I did you will see that I did exactly this introduce German working line X show lines. Unfortunately I am not sure how I will proceed from this point forward given that Hara has developed DCM. Looking at the pedigree, there was a specific reason that I attempted to move away from my bitch's pedigree and toward Bayern, Weyermuhler type working dogs.
In North America, typically working people do not look at N.American line dogs for sport. Probably 75% or more look at Euro show lines, and less than 25% look at German working lines, such as Bayern, Mooreiche, Edertal, Burgstaette, Weyermuhler, Briska, Ascomannis, Eschenbruch, etc. |
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Rosamburg
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Camelot1 wrote: | depends on what you want from the dog ..sch , or ipo is a sport ...doesnt mean that dog will naturally protect if its parents are ipo 1, or ipo3 or not ....everyday life should tell you more, and knowing the bloodline says more ..the isolation test on strange ground with an unknown person ..and esp if never trained before can tell you something about that dog .
The dogs in the past were close to the facilities .e.g in germany , and holland .....for korung etc ..and the dogs you mentioned such as gino ..gamon..jivago are in all show lines in europe ..and is natural for vello to have taken working tests so much ...he was owned by the main working man Herr Vogel ..I think this gap in show/work is abit of a myth ..asfar as dogs from show lines can't work ...as said all those studs you mentioned in the past are inbred on the present lines in the show ring ..there is no difference . I think the main problem is most properly the owners do not care much to do the working competitions ..with there dogs .
cheers |
Agreed on some points. I did not say that there are no show dogs that cannot work, my dog is from show lines, and we were able to successfully pass 6 straight Sch3 trials. BTW these were real trials, including one regional GSD championship where she was the only non German Shepherd entered. However I see a very clear difference in the protection work ability in most working line vs show line dogs. There are some exceptions of course. |
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Rosamburg
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: Re: point of view |
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| jotunheim wrote: | You are all entitled to your opinions - I may agree to some of the things said here, but I certainly also disagree.
To mention merely 2 issues/topics i disagree on:
- open the stud books
It's in my humble opinion NOT necessary - the lines are out there, as are the dogs, but they might not be from any of the prominent breeders.
- a working dog is a real working dog on the field, not at home
Sorry - aren't we forgetting the original purpose of the breed Dobermann. |
I am not really serious about opening the stud books. I said "I am almost at the point". If it were ever to be done it would have to be very limited and very controlled. I am not there at this point.
As far as your assessment of the statement, "In terms of working dog is a real working dog on the field not at home", I agree with you there Bitten. And I see the extreme end of that living in N. America where a lot of Dobie people dress their dogs up in cute costumes. |
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Camelot1
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all
Hi Niro
Yes I don't think many have experienced such a dog that has the fighting ability in real life with the fearlessness, courage , aggression, to finish the job. I agree there is many excellent sport dogs with sch3 that could not pass the korung ...as the korung requires the faster reactions of a more sharper dog ... also its the natural confidence . not instilled that is wanted
.Sorry to hear that some dogs nowdays have not met this standard ,,,asfar as your dogs pedigree of good show dogs who can work will be , normally alpha le dobry will not be too far behind ,,aswell as the von nordenstam dogs ....guys hilo /..guys hedi etc ..bronco v zenn ..frankenland ...the thing all these dogs will have in common is that they are bred to furstenfeld ..bordo ..vello etc .
The principal of more modern pure working lines will always lead to ellendonk he was one of the main principle working dog breeders .....you mentioned van wantij ..I think obviously that his dogs have been successfull in working would down to the fact that obviously he has alpha le dobry ..and Nicolai v. Kloster Kamp.bingo v ellendonk etc ..in there pedigree .Nicolai have seen working on an german video... ..but even if you look at bingo v ellendonk pedigree your see he is bred to furstenfeld
http://www.dobermannvereniging.nl/modules/pedigree/pedigree.php?pedid=474
Hi Rosenburg
I agree with what you are saying ,,,there are some dogs out there yes , but you would have to know what you looking for asfar as bloodlines ,,,then of course not every dog will be maybe what is wanted ..what i am interested to know is dogs from pure working lines ...do they all ..or still rare to find this sharpness , aggression ..hard types , and as said in these modern times with anti dogs laws they do have to be in the right hands...saying that my first bitch was a dream bitch to live with ...so quite ..relaxed ..i just had to tell her once to lay down , and would , but in the attack mode was extremenly aggressive ..fearless
....btw Bitten never said that ..Julia said ..
cheers |
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Niro
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Yes i agree Camelot - and iam aware of the fact that most really "strong" dogs go back to this line. The dog i mentioned Bosz Burghof is inbreed on Gina Weyermuhle who again is line/inbreed on Bingo Ellendonk X Cona Niederkassel
The problem are that to many of dogs from these lines dont look like Dobes - they are to long, low on leg with quite terrible head-types and tiny bone structure..
But this is not the case with Bosz - though of course he is not a show dog - he has very good bones , a quite ok strong head and are almost quadratic with a quite strong back (compared to other dogs from these lines) so he should be interesting.. The same is with Ascomannis Gitano.. he look good being from these lines..
Bosz has a interesting mother line.. Going back to Edzar d Bois De Liers - imo together with Gringo Franckenhorst (who Mr Stienstra kept himself as follower to Hertog Alpha Dobry) are the best sons of Alpha in work- character. Edzar were very goog looking and did wery well in high trials all breeds and in the DVIN Meisterschaft he has many times best B and C work with 99 and 100 punkte.. but i know - unfortunately like Gringo he had HD C - but still i think it is a loss for the breed that these dogs are not used in breeding - Edzar maybe had 8-10 litters - i defend breeding with HD C in this case cuase of very valuable work character..
Last edited by Niro on Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jotunheim
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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ummm ... Niro, have you actually seen ALL the dogs you make reference to, and I'm referring to in live, touch them, seen them train and trailed. Just wondering ...
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Niro
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Julia mentioned in the beginning of the topic - Tahi Reme Gerett - i think he is one of the best sons of Gino - he has a really good head with almost perfect body - being IDC Sieger and all - full of temeperament when working - it is a pity that not more breeders use him though he live in ukraine..
So it is with Bojan Havelland - why dont more people use him - he is very good looking (IDC Jgd Sieger) - i saw him when he was in top show condition - he was participant in the DM and are Landesmeister this year - and lives in Germany.. His litter mates ar also good sport dogs..
I had a interesting ""chat" with his owner @ the IDC-09 - he let me have a look @ Bojan - he still looked great (though in sport condition) he seemed friendly and relaxed - but in work show high temperament and workabillity.
We discussed shortly the pedigree of Bojan - and Ralf said we needed more dogs like some of the ancestors in the mother line of Nando (father of Bojan) - they go to the kennel Amtmannsgarten - Kirchbul then back to Rotbachtal - FALK  Ralf said in Germany they were known as "crazy dogs" hehe.. But with the term "crazy dogs" he ment in a positive manner - dogs who could DO THE JOB - and would if needed..
There are potential for good health in his line - the father Nando were 12-13, Grandfather Orson > old - and a hard type of dog with Körung 1A - his father Fela were 14 or 15 years and with Körung 1A for life.. The mother side of Bojan are Isana Maerkischenland - Jivago and so on.. Top producers of show dogs with really GOOD Sport character - why is this not interesting in the Dobie world.. |
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jotunheim
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Niro ...
Grandfather Orson
Are you referring to Orson v. Roveline ? IF so, he never passed the Körung, so ...
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Niro
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| jotunheim wrote: | | ummm ... Niro, have you actually seen ALL the dogs you make reference to, and I'm referring to in live, touch them, seen them train and trailed. Just wondering ... |
No - the ones iam referring to who are alive > i have in most cases seen/met them - but the older ones no - why?? I base my wiews on imo reliable sorces but it is only my opinions not taken for granted as facts - if iam wrong correct me.. - To evaluate the look i dont have to meet the dog - workabillity yes - but i have my sources and a dog who pass the Körung - were i have read the score in the classifications tell me enough mostly - for me it is a good dog..
Btw respect to you Bitten for many of your choiches in selection in breeding - i like the work y done.. |
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Niro
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| jotunheim wrote: | Niro ...
Grandfather Orson
Are you referring to Orson v. Roveline ? IF so, he never passed the Körung, so ... |
Oh y say so - iam sensing a tone her - show me some respect.. 
- Interesting if so then the official records are wrong and you should send a letter to the Verein.. In the records Orson passed the Körung 20/5-93 with 1A (2 years) his sister Olga the ZVA in 95 (11B).. But if you are correct - well the somebody are cheating - but it does not change the opinion in my mind about the dog.. What about his mother Lema - Körung or not? Imo one of the best dogs from the respected Roveline breeding..
Last edited by Niro on Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jotunheim
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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It has nothing to do with lack of respect, but even info on the internet can be incorrect - as we attended that Körung, like the ones before and after, and I took photos of Orson at that specific Körung - he was set back, SORRY
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