Fedor Del Nasi - his and his lines influence on the breed

[Ferdinand]

Baskal do you have a study about what you wrote?

In humans is a relation between thyroid and heartproblems not new.

[Weinberge]

two dcm dogs from a long lived stud. Then ...like I alwais said to Baksal, dcm it is not only black and white.

[Ferdinand]

http://www.vom-bayrischen-loewen.de/cms/upload/04.12.06/EKG2.jpg

Eysindia has over 9000 VES and you will say that this dog don't have DCM?

[ins0mnia]

Oh it looks like you're also in contact with Anne?

PS: I can hook you up with the right people if you're interested, also in regards to your DCM cases database...

[BasKal]

It isnt a clear case - because hypothyroidism can affect the heart by itself and create e similar problem. She may has genetic DCM - or not. If she has the typical DCM* CAUSE and is still alive with....thyroxin then this is a miracle.
Anyway - the other 2 are more interesting and looks that the sire may passed DCM.



*DCM means an enlarged and not fuctional heart (an early symptom with high diagnostic value is a big number of extrasystoles) - there are many causes for this condition (an enlarged heart) in humans and animals.
In dobs, most cases of this condition are due to an inherited desease, but other causes - like Hypothyroidism- can create the same symptoms.

In every case, I dont try -or interested- to make Balu to seem "innocent".

Sonia Dob in another related part of this Forum wrote:

"Eventually a close breeding are used by breeders (test mating) to check whether a sire, dam or both are carriers of certain inherited disorders of unknown aetiology. Apart from ethical issues (an increased number of affected individuals must be expected), this is true for dominant disorders with full penetrance but not for autosomal dominance disorders with reduced penetrance as Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM) in Dobermann. Mating of two affected dogs may produce an unaffected carrier (silent carrier) which disseminates the disease in his progeny without us noticing."

[BasKal]

Ferdinand - I dont doupt that SOME FORM of DCM in humans is associated with Hypothyroidism.

But we talk about dobermanns - and in dobermanns the stakes is to find what causes the incurrable, genetic dobermann DCM.

I put THESE STUDIES in this forum since 2006 - they are most interesting and I think that someone must combine the facts that they have to offer to get an idea. Since then I found also some other, but IMHO, the general picture didnt change :
http://www.dobermann-review.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1283

[jotunheim]

[Ferdinand]

@ Baskal

i know two breeders from USA which have a few dogs in LC programm. To the puppy buyers they give the advise to check thyroid and hearth after 3 year old yearly. A few people don't make and these dogs died suddenly. Obduction showed DCM - but when in this two lines the dogs have low thyroid and get medication - they get old.

When obduction the report is DCM than DCM. Kresken (also CC) say that between DCM and low thyroid is a correlation. When a dog have DCM then he recommend to check the thyroid level.

Thyroid problems you have in all lines but the problems which will have the dogs are very different.

[BasKal]

Clearly a thyroid problem will make an existing DCM problem FAR worse. Also a thyroid problem can cause cardio which looks very similar to DCM.

When I say that these problems are unrelated I speak for the genetic backround.
In my experience I had seen low thyroid dogs WITHOUT DCM, but also low thyroid dogs with cardiac problems that imitated DCM and desapeared with thyroxin.
Also I had seen DCM suffering dogs WITHOUT any thyroid issue.Thyroxin couldnt help them.

[Ferdinand]

Baskal Eysindia's echo wasn't good too.

[BasKal]

OK - while she had at least 2 half brothers with DCM, she could have DCM too.

[Ferdinand]

There are many other half releated dogs (father side) but i don't write there name here because i haven't a link or the owners don't like. But i think Fedor's mother died suddenly and that is as i would a breeder one point to look another studs. Also Gino was to much used. This is also a point of money and how the stud-owner thinking...

Dobermann is working breed and so the physical condition, working ability and health is first... Most show and working breeders seperated there lines about 30 years and now we see the problems. I don't like del Citone or Burgstätte both is breeding - without looking on the future generations... or why was Gino Gomez or Asco so much used? Gino and Asco i see the + and - for the next generations. A good outbreeding you must more think about than a linebreeding.............

[BasKal]

In my opinion Fedor is a medium risk sire.
His father is not an animal who passed DCM - so in the worst case he is heterozygous.
He may throw enough clear descedants more from the females which happen to be clear, or from heterozygous carriers.
Offcourse noone knows which animal is the clear one - the investigation for the genes responsible and the development of a genetic test for DCM is the only way to save the breed - not old wives tales and funny calculation systems.

[jotunheim]

[ins0mnia]