Gino Gomez Superstar

[anabella]

I spend very pleasure time looking on Gino Gomez presentation in DR
Dobie Database.

http://www.dobermannreview.co.yu/db/details.php?id=649

This dog is indeed amazing.
I'm very well impressed with his progeny.
He is the greatest producer of our time who has gave many champions,Club Winners and couples of IDC Sigers.

Gino gives very beautiful progeny of well recognized type and his excellent treats are also passed from generation to generation.
I'm happy that we will see more Ginobily dogs in many years to come.

[meadow]

Beautyfull yes, but what do You do with championtitles if Your dog dies on heart attac on the age of 4 years. I just wonder. There You have some progeny. Great indeed.

[BasKal]

The general outlook of health for Gino kids is not bad till now.The small number of Kardio deaths are only from dogs from renowned or very possible kardio Dam lines (like Chendra Novalis-Mia v Nordenstamm, or from Graf Guido and Royal bell blood).Gino is 9 years old.This is very unlikely for a Kardio male.

[Weinberge]

[sali]

well,I am only a human pathologist, not too good in genetics, but if somebody wrote here some time ago that DMC id believed to be AD disease, You can create a "pedigree tree" of Ebo descendant and mark those who died on DMC,and see if it goes well with the teory of AD trait...
AD disease has no transmitters-the animal is either ill or disease free....
IMHO Gino must be disease free...if the animal who is now 9 years old is the right Gino..

[BasKal]

Clearly Ebo is the problem in this lines, but, with DCM looking a dominant trait (in the dobermann), he looks as an heterogygote carrier and sufferer of the problem.An heterogygous animal posses the "bad" version of the gene AND the clear "good" version of the gene.He can pass the good version to some of his "kids" so, if the mother is not a carrier, or if she is also heterogygous, some of the offspring will be clear and healthy, about 25% in the case of a mating between two heterogygous carriers.There is strong evidence that Gino is one of these luckies.
Inbreeding is a tool working to two directions.It can bring the bad, or the good in the light.
Mia v Norden stamm had DCM.She passed it to Chendra Novalis, and Chendra to her sons Bombastic* and Armstrong v Hanseaten (from another mating with a Norden Stamm line male). The brother of Bombastic, Brams is alive, so, maybe he had "escaped" to.

*Bombastic's death officially is from stomach torsion.It is very possible, so, I used his name only as suspect not sure case.Armstrong had DCM.

[Ruf-Ctr2]

@BasKal

So in your opinion, Gino does not pass DCM?
Who do you think passed the DCM Gene to the A litter of delCitone? (Did they all die of cardio problems?)
Prinz v. NordenStamm must have been healthy himself and also proved to pass health to some of his progeny - for excample BaronNike
So did it come from TequliaMali? (it is said that she didn`t die of DCM)

[BasKal]

If the problem is DCM, it must comes from Ebo (Ebo and most of his pupps died prematurely).Ebo is Tequilla's maternal grandsire, and Prinz's also.
Prinz was very long lived, so he must be clear.
Astor and Alpha Adelante, also Arielle died prematurely, also some of their descedants,and as they were by Prinz they must been heterogygous to the trait, so, they all had the problem gene and the clear one.
The DCM in Dobs looks like the DCM of Boxers in the way it affects the heart, (there is fat tisue between the heart muscle fibers, and the heart becomes enlarged and weak.In other forms of DCM in other breeds, the heart muscle fibers became very thin, but without fat between them).In boxers is a dominamt autosomal trait.The DCM of great Danes is sex linked (it passes like aimophilia in humans) and passes from healthy looking carrier mothers to their sons only!Only males suffer and die! The gene is not effective in females.In portugese water dogs there is a resesive form:2 healthy looking carrier parents produce sick puppies who die in an early age.In this form of inheritense the dog must be omogygous to die.The heterogygous carriers of the gene are healthy.
In dobermanns most studies tend to prove the dominant mode of inheritence, but it is not cleared yet.I have a strange idea that dobermanns may have two types, a dominant and a sex-linked as it is known that the Great Dane was used in the past in the creation of our breed.Time will tell us...
There are a small number of dogs that die very early, at about 2-3 years.They must be the most unfortunate animals who inherited the dominant bad gene from both their parents.
In the dominant form the heterogygote carriers die at about 5-8 years, with females living longer, even at 9 - 9,5 years, so, the deaths of females at this age are not alarm people, and many DCM damlines are not identified.
If there is a portion of DCM in the breed which is inherited like in Great Danes, the mothers will be healthy and long lived, but the sons will die early and their sisters will be healthy-but carriers.

[BasKal]

There is a more scary possibility in the dobermann.That we are dealing with a polygenetic trait . In this case, for a dob to have the disease, it must inherit a "puzzle" of genes, more than one or two, genes that are in different locations of the genome, and as simple pairs are looking innocent.
In this case, every mating could be dangerous, and inbreeding-linebreeding must be avoided, without having a clue what is a carrier or not.

[zedemar]

BasKal,

I tend more to agree with the poygenetic theory.
Since affected X affected would make purebreed affected dogs, we should have seen whole litters die of the disease and the parents too.
In this case, sounds odd, the problem would solve itself.
Since nobody knows about the heredity of DCM, there are many theories and also false accusing of dogs that might be responsible, or even kennels.
The only thing, one or we can do, is to support the scientists and allow them to test our dogs.

[BasKal]

I agree for the need of siendific support.But the polygenic mode of inheritence is the more difficult to solve, because the problem can hide for many generations.
In this case we can find ourselves with a whole breed carrying a portion of the "puzzle".It may recuire to cross breed with other breeds to help the situation.

[zedemar]

HD seems also to be a polygenetic disease. In Germany it is almost no problem anymore because of eliminating dogs from the breeding scene that are affected.
Maybe as far there is no gene-testing available, constantly testing, especially males that are used frequently, might help in this case.

[BasKal]

I dont think that HD was ever a really big problem.The dobermann doesnt have a comformation with a tendency to HD.Offcourse a number of well known dogs had HD in the past, but I dont think that the problem was so big in the general population as is know the premature death syndrom of the modern dobermann.If a dog is a known carrier must be avoided, but the next "healthy" dog may is more dangerous if the trait is indeed polygenic.

[Weinberge]

Very interesting yours discussion.
I do not know exactly the ancestors and what i write is my suposition and intuition based by pedigree lines and genotype.
I like the man who know so many things and i like to know much more about this problem and ancestors.

[Juhani]

Yes, indeed! Very interesting discussion. So far this has been very objective discussion. Let's hope it stays so!

My oppinion is that Gino can't be the reason. It just poped out in some of his mateings because his inbreeding procentage is quite high and in some cases this kind result can be seen. So I'm not blameing any one on any thining every one makes their own choices.

I suggest that we try to keep feelings out of this. And try to improve knowlage about DCM.