Working Dobe lines V. Show Dobe lines

[gervaz]

I'm in New Jersey, USA. I'm interested in a female Dobe puppy and am seriously considering buying from a show "breeder". I assuming that show breeders breed for confirmation first and temperment 2nd. I want temperment 1st. where can I find a breeder that breeds for temperment. Is it fair to say that "working" lines have more stable temperments than "show" lines?

[rosebud81592]

You did not state whether you wanted an American or European Doberman. Since they are bred for different purposes, there will be vast differences between their temperaments. I have raised both types of Dobermans in the past. I prefer the Euro Dobe overall.
Will you be showing your Doberman in conformation, obedience, tracking, schutzhund or agility?
Even if all you want is a good, sound companion, I would recommend a European bloodline. There are American kennels that do breed Euro Dobes. A list of those breeders can be found at the United Doberman Club web page. I will list the members closest to you, although I do not know them personally, but you may find more information on the internet.

In NEW YORK

Bell'Lavoro Kennel
E-mail Bellavorodobes@pioneeris.net
Website Bell'Lavoro Kennels

CARA KENNELS
Email caradobe@aol.com
Website Cara Dobermans


In PENNSYLVANIA

von Bach
E-mail bach145@home.com


If you would rather own an American bred Doberman, go to the Doberman Pinscher Club of American web page for a membership list. They also have educational material on these websites that could prove useful to new puppy buyers.
Make a point of meeting both parents of the puppy you plan to buy, if that is possible. You can see first hand the temperament of the parents this way.
There are also well known Dobermann Kennels in Europe and Asia that list web sites. Get on the internet and do some research. There is a lot to learn before you buy.
Good luck with your puppy search.

Respectfully
LAR from USA

[vicio]

Dobermanns from Cara seem to be very good working dogs. Many of them have Sch 3 plus one of them won AIAD working championship this year.

[gervaz]

sorry for not making my intentions clear. This will be a family companion FIRST and foremost. I will enroll the dog in formal obedience training but I wouldn't be interested in showing or Schutzhund (sp?). Possible a Canine Good Citizen, or Therapy Dog.

Thanks for your replies.

I have contacted and spoke to CARA and Bell Lavoro, both were excellent sources of information. It seems that Euro's are bred more for working and Americans are more for show. If breeders are breeding for Show then they want their dogs to LOOK good and I'm afraid they skimp on temperment and function. Don't judge a book by its cover. I don't care about the dog's physical beauty, I care about inner-beauty i.e. Temperment.

[jayL]

In my honest opinion, not everyone can handle the training and rearing of a true working Dobermann. That's why most k9 units in the US choose GSD's or Mals rather than a Dobermann which were solely developed for the work. Most showline Dobermann make great household pets. You just have to choose among the parents if you love their temperaments.

[vgfigue]

How can you judge the temperament of a dog by just looking at it? Do you know how they are going to react in a stressful situation? Show dogs are bred first for beauty and second for temperament. True, they must pass some minimal temperament test in the ring. These test, however, are not what I consider stressful situation. It's only when you push a dog to the max that you begin to see the true nature of the dog. That's why I strongly believe in Schutzhund, obedience and agility competition. It's the best way breeders can judge the overall quality of a dog.

A good analogy is choosing astronauts. Who among us would not like to be an astronaut, but do we have the physical and metal conditions required for the job. To be and astronaut, one must undergo some very challenging physical and metal tests. This is the only way to weed out those candidates that do not meet the high standards that are required for the job. Most people would fail immediately. You don't want an astronaut to crack in middle of a mission. It's a stressful job and requires a special kind of person. For these reasons, you must test for metal, psychological and physical abilities.

Victor

[Rosamburg]

[quote="jayL"] and rearing of a true working Dobermann. That's why most k9 units in the US choose GSD's or Mals rather than a Dobermann which were solely developed for the work.

I would disagree with this statement. I think most K9 units choose GSD's because they believe they work better than the average Dobermann. If you only saw the average (and majority of) Doberman's (read AKC) in the USA you could only draw the same conclusion. Furthermore K9 units prefer GSD's because it is perceived that they can handle more adverse and extreme weather conditions than a Doberman.

[Lorna]

Having worked with many PDK9 units, (including Bellingham )Rosamburg is correct, PD's don't use Dobermanns due to the lack of courage and the high body sensitivity in dogs here. I think there are probably fewer than 10 Dobes being used in police work here in the states at this time.

[jayL]

I never mentioned AKC dogs to be used in police work and neither did I say I would get a soft dog from an AKC breeder even if it's a Mal or GSD. Have you seen real hard dogs? Those that pass French, Belgian and Mondio Ring Trials? Those that move like mals and with thresholds like that of real hard dogs? Those are REAL WORKING dobermanns. They aren't for newbies unlike the herders I've seen.

These dogs don't look for sheep to guard and predatory animals to ward off. They see people as prey and meet up to their purpose. Can you imagine a dog that can't just be trained with a tug because it lacks the herder's intense prey drive? These dogs aren't for newbies. Same reason why performance bulldogs are rarely used as police dogs. Cops can't train them because of either lack of experience or they want those that can EASILY be trained. But then again, they just buy those GSD's and Mals with titles and cross train them for reality scenarios.

My two cents.

[Rosamburg]

The way you stated the case however said K9's in the US. Even most dog sport people in the US have not seen many good Dobermann dogs working. Even less so the police who have much less exposure to good working dogs than the dog sport competition world where people tend to look pretty hard for the best working dogs and are breeders themselves or closely linked to them. A lot of dogs that cannot cut it in the sport world for whatever reason get sold to the police.

[jayL]

I was told that most Trainers get their dogs from Hungary. They get 20 to 30 dogs every other year (around $500 each). These dogs are tested and raised for REALITY training. Then again, there are also average and mediocre dogs out there. You just have to learn how to assess the overall dog that you need. These PP trainers don't go under sport training as theys don't need the unnatural behaviours for their dog's work. My golden retriever will work for a ball. Would even sit, stay and down or even walk over burning choals for a fetch. My dobe on the other hand likes to bite -with or without sleeve. Now this gives me the idea why cops carry their dog's favorite toys around.

The dogs I've seen that do SchH and IPO are not at all that bad. Some just try and chase the assilant and looks for the sleeve to bite. No leg, inner arm, chest nor back bites. The plain old sleeve works too well for them.

[Rosamburg]

Depends on the training. Many dogs focus too much on the sleeve and not the decoy.

[atmhack]

Jay has an interesting theory on Dobe v. GSD/Malinois psychology. I own a couple of Dobes...one American an one I imported from eastern Europe. Dobermann are not reliable for police work. It is difficult to find a really great Dobe...it is not as difficult to find a suitable Mal or GSD for police work. Almost anyone will tell you that they don't have the temperment (or at least it is not economical to find the relative few who do).

[Lorna]

But the right Dobermann is suitable for police work. Just the same as it takes the right GSD or Mal. Most police dog trainers import green dogs from Czech (GSD) or Holland (Mal). You don't see them going over to look at Dobes because Dobes just don't have the rep. at this time. Most departments in the states long ago, used Dobes, then the traits were bred out or it was found they couldn't handle the kenneling situation, weather, etc. Of course, nowadays even the GSD's live in the home with their handler. Maybe if they looked at some of the Euro dobes today.....
AS for the bite work, it takes real life type of training for the GSD's too, they are usually started on a sleeve and then go to muzzle work. My old "AKC" Dobe as you guys call it, went through 2 police academys just because that's where I was working at the time. This schutzhund trained dog quickly learned to focus on the man with only a little muzzle and suit work. Really only a matter of training with the right dog.